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> Subordination is a key component to an effective military force. In order for commanders to maximize their units’ effectiveness on the battlefield, their subo

> Subordination is a key component to an effective military force. In order for commanders to maximize their units’ effectiveness on the battlefield, their subordinates must execute their orders fully and without delay. It's a leader's job to establish credibility and to protect morale in order to ensure that troops are responsive to commands. This article's focus on the soldier's insubordination rather than their own baseness is tone-deaf and lacks any sort of self reflection. It's clear that masking young, healthy adults who are tasked with the responsibility of rushing into oncoming bullets and missiles if need be, to mask themselves for going on now well into our third year of covid, which was never a particular threat for young people, is bad for morale. It's absurd and non-sensical. Meanwhile the dark tone set by the title and the subsequent remedies proposed make me more concerned than I've perhaps ever been about the direction our armed forces are under.

Spooky23 5y ago
A buddy was out on some punishment detail for a uniform violation — wearing a military issue fleece as a jacket, which is apparently controversial in some quarters. If dealing with clothing regulations that you dislike is a problem for you, the military is probably the wrong career choice. If you’re not going to perform a task that the average 2nd grader is able to comply with, why should we assume that you’ll run up that hill? In my non-military gig, we fired a bunch of people for this. It’s a stupid stand for freedom or whatever that was very expensive for those individuals.
- TheGigaChad 5y ago
- mpyne 5y ago
  > A buddy was out on some punishment detail for a uniform violation — wearing a military issue fleece as a jacket, which is apparently controversial in some quarters. Oh God I hope this isn't a problem, I've been using my fleece myself from time to time (though without the rank tab in this situation, to 'civilianize' it).
  - jerlam 5y ago
    Task and Purpose wrote an entire article on it: https://taskandpurpose.com/culture/army-fleece-jacket-uniform/ https://taskandpurpose.com/culture/army-fleece-jacket-unifor...
- chrisco255 5y ago
  Oh, the military is definitely the wrong choice for me. Increasingly, it's the wrong choice for anyone. Subordination is a means to an end, that is to say, a meaningful goal, not an end in of itself. What is that goal and what do the masks do to achieve it? Anyways, I must not be the only one noticing the inanity of our military leadership coming out of West Point: "US military struggled to attract National Guard and reserve troops in 2021 fiscal year" https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/14/politics/military-recruitment-numbers-2021/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/14/politics/military-recruitment...
asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
It's true that soldiers do not face much personal risk from COVID. But minimizing personal risk is rarely the central notion of any military order. And the fact that an order does not center a soldier's personal risk is no justification for disobeying it. A masking order or vaccine mandate is far from the most unreasonable order that a given soldier will be required to obey during their career, along pretty much any possible axis of reasonableness. Fwiw I'm pretty much in agreement that now or the very near future would be the good time to end mask mandates for the coronavirus disease. But I don't think that gives service members license to disobey orders.
- pdonis 5y ago
  While all that you say is true, it's also true that superiors who insist on issuing orders that are counterproductive are reducing the mission effectiveness of their units. One of the most important jobs of commanders is to balance various risks in order to maximize mission effectiveness. Unfortunately, I do not get any sense from this article that that is being done; I only see a focus on one particular order without any discussion of how it fits into the big picture of overall mission effectiveness.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    Color me skeptical. Are not some of the regulations around the exact state of the uniform less justified than mask mandates, in terms of maintaining unit effectiveness? I can't escape the notion that the main reason for the difficulty of this particular order is the politicized aspect of the mask and/or the vaccine. I'm willing to entertain other hypotheses but I'm not aware of any that fit the data better.
    - pdonis 5y ago
      > Are not some of the regulations around the exact state of the uniform are less justified than mask mandates, in terms of maintaining unit effectiveness? Quite possibly, yes. My experience (which of course is limited: the military is very big--and it's also well out of date by now, as it's been quite some time since I was in the military) has been that in truly effective units, such "exact state of the uniform" regulations are not strictly enforced day to day, for that very reason: any time spent on enforcing them could be better spent on something of practical value for mission effectiveness. There are special contexts, of course: if you're attending a special military ceremony, your uniform will be expected to be immaculate, even if nobody enforces that day to day in your working environment. But that "special contexts" is the point: the regulations are interpreted according to context, in terms of the overall objective of mission effectiveness.
GVIrish 5y ago
> It's clear that masking young, healthy adults who are tasked with the responsibility of rushing into oncoming bullets and missiles if need be, to mask themselves for going on now well into our third year of covid, which was never a particular threat for young people, is bad for morale. It's absurd and non-sensical. No, what is absurd and nonsensical is the idea that soldiers can disobey orders that can directly compromise mission readiness. Sure, a 22 year old E-4 might not be likely to get seriously ill from covid, but there are plenty of enlisted soldiers, sailors, and airmen in their 40's and 50's who are more at risk. Having a few commanding officers or pilots or other key people end up being unavailable at a critical time can compromise the mission. It is a health countermeasure that is a minor inconvenience and not a difficult order to follow. In the military there are many, many rules that might seem like they don't make sense but nevertheless are part of keeping discipline in the military. You can't wear your hat indoors. If you're driving on base and it's time for reverie you have to stop, get out of your car, and stand at attention. You're not allowed to drink alcohol on ships, even when you're off duty. How does it make sense for masking during a pandemic to be the hill to die on?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- pklausler 5y ago
  It makes me happy to know that there's a time for daily reverie in the US military. Everybody should be encouraged to get lost in a daydream regularly.
  - GVIrish 5y ago
    Hahaha, my brain type the wrong word but it's funny so I'll leave it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
> It's clear that masking young, healthy adults who are tasked with the responsibility of rushing into oncoming bullets and missiles if need be, to mask themselves for going on now well into our third year of covid, which was never a particular threat for young people, is bad for morale. It's absurd and non-sensical. Interestingly, I have the exact opposite take. You've joined an organization where you're expected to put yourself in mortal danger. There are a whole host of rules in the military that are basically arbitrary (e.g. aspects of the dress code standards), but are there to show order and to differentiate a professional fighting force from a gang of thugs. What I find "absurd and nonsensical" is that masks are the hill people are (figuratively, as opposed to the actual literal danger in their jobs) willing to die on. To me it just shows how 100% tribal the entire mask discussion has become - for soldiers it can certainly have nothing to do with any perceived danger or loss of control, as there are already exponentially worse other examples that soldiers have submitted to for years.

Spooky23 5y ago

A buddy was out on some punishment detail for a uniform violation — wearing a military issue fleece as a jacket, which is apparently controversial in some quarters. If dealing with clothing regulations that you dislike is a problem for you, the military is probably the wrong career choice. If you’re not going to perform a task that the average 2nd grader is able to comply with, why should we assume that you’ll run up that hill? In my non-military gig, we fired a bunch of people for this. It’s a stupid stand for freedom or whatever that was very expensive for those individuals.

TheGigaChad 5y ago
mpyne 5y ago
> A buddy was out on some punishment detail for a uniform violation — wearing a military issue fleece as a jacket, which is apparently controversial in some quarters. Oh God I hope this isn't a problem, I've been using my fleece myself from time to time (though without the rank tab in this situation, to 'civilianize' it).
- jerlam 5y ago
  Task and Purpose wrote an entire article on it: https://taskandpurpose.com/culture/army-fleece-jacket-uniform/ https://taskandpurpose.com/culture/army-fleece-jacket-unifor...
chrisco255 5y ago
Oh, the military is definitely the wrong choice for me. Increasingly, it's the wrong choice for anyone. Subordination is a means to an end, that is to say, a meaningful goal, not an end in of itself. What is that goal and what do the masks do to achieve it? Anyways, I must not be the only one noticing the inanity of our military leadership coming out of West Point: "US military struggled to attract National Guard and reserve troops in 2021 fiscal year" https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/14/politics/military-recruitment-numbers-2021/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/14/politics/military-recruitment...

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago

It's true that soldiers do not face much personal risk from COVID. But minimizing personal risk is rarely the central notion of any military order. And the fact that an order does not center a soldier's personal risk is no justification for disobeying it. A masking order or vaccine mandate is far from the most unreasonable order that a given soldier will be required to obey during their career, along pretty much any possible axis of reasonableness. Fwiw I'm pretty much in agreement that now or the very near future would be the good time to end mask mandates for the coronavirus disease. But I don't think that gives service members license to disobey orders.

pdonis 5y ago
While all that you say is true, it's also true that superiors who insist on issuing orders that are counterproductive are reducing the mission effectiveness of their units. One of the most important jobs of commanders is to balance various risks in order to maximize mission effectiveness. Unfortunately, I do not get any sense from this article that that is being done; I only see a focus on one particular order without any discussion of how it fits into the big picture of overall mission effectiveness.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  Color me skeptical. Are not some of the regulations around the exact state of the uniform less justified than mask mandates, in terms of maintaining unit effectiveness? I can't escape the notion that the main reason for the difficulty of this particular order is the politicized aspect of the mask and/or the vaccine. I'm willing to entertain other hypotheses but I'm not aware of any that fit the data better.
  - pdonis 5y ago
    > Are not some of the regulations around the exact state of the uniform are less justified than mask mandates, in terms of maintaining unit effectiveness? Quite possibly, yes. My experience (which of course is limited: the military is very big--and it's also well out of date by now, as it's been quite some time since I was in the military) has been that in truly effective units, such "exact state of the uniform" regulations are not strictly enforced day to day, for that very reason: any time spent on enforcing them could be better spent on something of practical value for mission effectiveness. There are special contexts, of course: if you're attending a special military ceremony, your uniform will be expected to be immaculate, even if nobody enforces that day to day in your working environment. But that "special contexts" is the point: the regulations are interpreted according to context, in terms of the overall objective of mission effectiveness.

GVIrish 5y ago

> It's clear that masking young, healthy adults who are tasked with the responsibility of rushing into oncoming bullets and missiles if need be, to mask themselves for going on now well into our third year of covid, which was never a particular threat for young people, is bad for morale. It's absurd and non-sensical. No, what is absurd and nonsensical is the idea that soldiers can disobey orders that can directly compromise mission readiness. Sure, a 22 year old E-4 might not be likely to get seriously ill from covid, but there are plenty of enlisted soldiers, sailors, and airmen in their 40's and 50's who are more at risk. Having a few commanding officers or pilots or other key people end up being unavailable at a critical time can compromise the mission. It is a health countermeasure that is a minor inconvenience and not a difficult order to follow. In the military there are many, many rules that might seem like they don't make sense but nevertheless are part of keeping discipline in the military. You can't wear your hat indoors. If you're driving on base and it's time for reverie you have to stop, get out of your car, and stand at attention. You're not allowed to drink alcohol on ships, even when you're off duty. How does it make sense for masking during a pandemic to be the hill to die on?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pklausler 5y ago
It makes me happy to know that there's a time for daily reverie in the US military. Everybody should be encouraged to get lost in a daydream regularly.
- GVIrish 5y ago
  Hahaha, my brain type the wrong word but it's funny so I'll leave it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

> It's clear that masking young, healthy adults who are tasked with the responsibility of rushing into oncoming bullets and missiles if need be, to mask themselves for going on now well into our third year of covid, which was never a particular threat for young people, is bad for morale. It's absurd and non-sensical. Interestingly, I have the exact opposite take. You've joined an organization where you're expected to put yourself in mortal danger. There are a whole host of rules in the military that are basically arbitrary (e.g. aspects of the dress code standards), but are there to show order and to differentiate a professional fighting force from a gang of thugs. What I find "absurd and nonsensical" is that masks are the hill people are (figuratively, as opposed to the actual literal danger in their jobs) willing to die on. To me it just shows how 100% tribal the entire mask discussion has become - for soldiers it can certainly have nothing to do with any perceived danger or loss of control, as there are already exponentially worse other examples that soldiers have submitted to for years.