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This is a great comment. And of course you're aware that I largely agree with it. So with that proviso, all I will say in response is that I think it would be

This is a great comment. And of course you're aware that I largely agree with it. So with that proviso, all I will say in response is that I think it would be helpful to consider the opposing view point: If the goal is to elicit an emotional or political response that one desires through one's actions, why should perfect, literal truth be in the way of achieving those goals? My answer to that is that it destroys good faith and good faith is never worth sacrificing. Never. I literally can't think of one instance where mutual understanding exists and I would consider sacrificing good faith. So for me that's what the kettle of fish boils down to, and quite frankly it's one of the main reasons I'm happy I no longer date the person I mentioned above, even if she was otherwise wonderful and my ticket into many fancy parties. I'd rather have someone honest.

wutbrodo 5y ago
Yea, agreed. In the distinction I was highlighting, the women I've dated were all operating in good faith, which is what made it possible for us to work together to overcome their temporary lapses of the ability to think clearly. I didn't see this as implying anything about their character or intelligence other than the fact that they weren't perfect. It felt like exactly the same thing as the lapses of compassion that I tend towards when arguing, where the focus on truth makes me choose my words less carefully and casually say hurtful things (this was also something we worked on together in those relationships). This is in stark contrast to the people for whom dishonesty is core to their being, who literally can't comprehend the level of honesty you and I expect from (and deliver to) those we're close with. It sounds like you're saying that your experience with that gf was closer to that than she was to the good-faith-but-imperfect type of person I was referring to. In that case, good call.
- 3pt14159 5y ago
  I think the moment where she was capable of voicing what it was that she was doing was the moment where she should have known better. I'm still not sure if she just had a values difference from me or not, but with time to think about it, in retrospect I have higher standards now for this type of thing. But you're right that it does depend on whether or not language is just deployed in the heat of the moment or not. Even so, I think it betrays something deep seated when someone speaks falsehoods during an argument.

wutbrodo 5y ago

Yea, agreed. In the distinction I was highlighting, the women I've dated were all operating in good faith, which is what made it possible for us to work together to overcome their temporary lapses of the ability to think clearly. I didn't see this as implying anything about their character or intelligence other than the fact that they weren't perfect. It felt like exactly the same thing as the lapses of compassion that I tend towards when arguing, where the focus on truth makes me choose my words less carefully and casually say hurtful things (this was also something we worked on together in those relationships). This is in stark contrast to the people for whom dishonesty is core to their being, who literally can't comprehend the level of honesty you and I expect from (and deliver to) those we're close with. It sounds like you're saying that your experience with that gf was closer to that than she was to the good-faith-but-imperfect type of person I was referring to. In that case, good call.

3pt14159 5y ago
I think the moment where she was capable of voicing what it was that she was doing was the moment where she should have known better. I'm still not sure if she just had a values difference from me or not, but with time to think about it, in retrospect I have higher standards now for this type of thing. But you're right that it does depend on whether or not language is just deployed in the heat of the moment or not. Even so, I think it betrays something deep seated when someone speaks falsehoods during an argument.