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> We need to figure out how to educate people enough for them to be able to separate the government from the people. One, and perhaps most effective, way woul

by yumraj 5y ago

> We need to figure out how to educate people enough for them to be able to separate the government from the people. One, and perhaps most effective, way would be for the Chinese student groups to support these protests to show that they are indeed distinct from the CCP government, instead of using the language of social justice to silence criticism of the Chinese government's human rights record

alistairSH 5y ago
But are these student groups distinct from the CCP? Reading this and several other recent posts about Chinese student groups, it appears some/many of them are very much pro-CCP. Whether that's because those students are 100% indoctrinated or simply scared of retaliation against family black home, I do not know.
- atlasunshrugged 5y ago
  +1 here, my understanding is that many of these student groups are actually just astro-turfing orgs to give a veneer of credibility while being used by the CCP to spread their message, keep tabs on students while abroad, and spread influence.
- temp8964 5y ago
  Not just that. Chinese student associations work for the communist party. They directly work under the Chinese embassy. They are like foreign branches of the Chinese government. https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/07/chinas-long-arm-reaches-into-american-campuses-chinese-students-scholars-association-university-communist-party/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/07/chinas-long-arm-reaches... "But Southwest CSSA’s ties to the consulate are far closer than those of the individual groups at universities. Its bylaws state that all presidential candidates must first receive approval from the Chinese Consulate in Los Angeles before the election can take place. Southwest CSSA sometimes holds events inside the consulate itself."
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  > Whether that's because those students are 100% indoctrinated or simply scared of retaliation against family black home, I do not know. Most people in China have a fairly positive view of their country, which is not surprising, given how massively life has improved over the course of just one generation. A lot of students go abroad, and then are shocked at the sheer amount of hatred towards China and demonization of the country. It's not that the students are brainwashed to like China. It's just that they have an entirely different perspective.
  - chrischen 5y ago
    This. Most foreigners (of China) have a one-sided view of Chinese government, and they lack any imagination in empathizing with Chinese citizens. You can easily disenfranchise the voices of billions of actual Chinese constituents by saying everything is probably an astro turfing campaign. It’s not like American or foreign interests actually care about the well being of Chinese citizens. We (America and allies) didn’t take a vote of Iraqi citizens when deciding to liberate them, and not only that I can probably guarantee you 0 fucks were given for their livelihoods when making that decision. US politicians and policies are actually obligated to serve American constituents (as doing otherwise risks losing re-election), so whenever foreign policy claims to be anti—foreign-government for the benefit of foreign constituents—that is all political bullshit. But look at the facts. The communist party has driven China to become a massive success economically and this is an objective fact no one is arguing against. Do you really think the Chinese people are aligned with Western first world concerns when their pockets are lined so thickly by the CCP over the last forty years? And if they are indeed aligned with their government, then being anti government is the same as being anti-Chinese constituency. Describing it in any other way is just manufactured-justification. I’m not validating all the actions of the Chinese government. In fact they are actually severely bureaucratic, undeveloped, of course committing many moral sins. But if I take a stance against China I’m not deluding myself into believing I’m somehow the savior of Chinese people from their own government. They know which side they are on and what they are supporting.
    - alistairSH 5y ago
      Sure, but at the same time, it should be possible for a citizen to have a positive view of their nation and also a negative view of their government. The media portrays some of these student groups as almost militantly pro-CCP (above and beyond pro-China). I like the US. But from 2016-2020 I had almost nothing positive to say about the government. And when asked about Trump by foreigners (usually while I was traveling abroad) I didn’t feel compelled to defend him just because he’s the current president.
platinumrad 5y ago
Yeah just like how it was the responsibility of muslims to prove that they're weren't one of the bad ones after 9/11 right?
- yumraj 5y ago
  I'm not aware of any Muslim student groups in the US that were using the language of social justice to silence criticism of the Taliban or Al-Qaida.
  - platinumrad 5y ago
    I'm not talking about silencing criticism. I'm talking about this part: "One, and perhaps most effective, way would be for the Chinese student groups to support these protests to show that they are indeed distinct from the CCP government" I don't think they should be compelled to support protests, especially not ones deploying racist imagery, simply due to their nationality.
    - yumraj 5y ago
      What racist imagery was employed in those Olympic protest posters? They were depicting factual imagery and were in fact created by an Chinese Australian artist.
      - platinumrad 5y ago
        Factual imagery like a random athlete throwing a virus at the viewer. > and were in fact created by an Chinese Australian artist. This is gonna blow your mind, but I have seen an absurd amount of racism from the Chinese diaspora. Things like Taiwanese people calling Andrew Yang (who is himself descended from people from Taiwan) a CCP agent for having a completely milquetoast position on Taiwan for an American politican.
        CogitoCogito 5y ago
        > This is gonna blow your mind, but I have seen an absurd amount of racism from the Chinese diaspora. Things like Taiwanese people calling Andrew Yang (who is himself descended from people from Taiwan) a CCP agent for having a completely milquetoast position on Taiwan for an American politican. How is calling Andrew Yang a CCP agent racist? What does it have to due with race at all?

by yumraj 5y ago

alistairSH 5y ago

But are these student groups distinct from the CCP? Reading this and several other recent posts about Chinese student groups, it appears some/many of them are very much pro-CCP. Whether that's because those students are 100% indoctrinated or simply scared of retaliation against family black home, I do not know.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago
+1 here, my understanding is that many of these student groups are actually just astro-turfing orgs to give a veneer of credibility while being used by the CCP to spread their message, keep tabs on students while abroad, and spread influence.
temp8964 5y ago
Not just that. Chinese student associations work for the communist party. They directly work under the Chinese embassy. They are like foreign branches of the Chinese government. https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/07/chinas-long-arm-reaches-into-american-campuses-chinese-students-scholars-association-university-communist-party/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/07/chinas-long-arm-reaches... "But Southwest CSSA’s ties to the consulate are far closer than those of the individual groups at universities. Its bylaws state that all presidential candidates must first receive approval from the Chinese Consulate in Los Angeles before the election can take place. Southwest CSSA sometimes holds events inside the consulate itself."
DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
> Whether that's because those students are 100% indoctrinated or simply scared of retaliation against family black home, I do not know. Most people in China have a fairly positive view of their country, which is not surprising, given how massively life has improved over the course of just one generation. A lot of students go abroad, and then are shocked at the sheer amount of hatred towards China and demonization of the country. It's not that the students are brainwashed to like China. It's just that they have an entirely different perspective.
- chrischen 5y ago
  This. Most foreigners (of China) have a one-sided view of Chinese government, and they lack any imagination in empathizing with Chinese citizens. You can easily disenfranchise the voices of billions of actual Chinese constituents by saying everything is probably an astro turfing campaign. It’s not like American or foreign interests actually care about the well being of Chinese citizens. We (America and allies) didn’t take a vote of Iraqi citizens when deciding to liberate them, and not only that I can probably guarantee you 0 fucks were given for their livelihoods when making that decision. US politicians and policies are actually obligated to serve American constituents (as doing otherwise risks losing re-election), so whenever foreign policy claims to be anti—foreign-government for the benefit of foreign constituents—that is all political bullshit. But look at the facts. The communist party has driven China to become a massive success economically and this is an objective fact no one is arguing against. Do you really think the Chinese people are aligned with Western first world concerns when their pockets are lined so thickly by the CCP over the last forty years? And if they are indeed aligned with their government, then being anti government is the same as being anti-Chinese constituency. Describing it in any other way is just manufactured-justification. I’m not validating all the actions of the Chinese government. In fact they are actually severely bureaucratic, undeveloped, of course committing many moral sins. But if I take a stance against China I’m not deluding myself into believing I’m somehow the savior of Chinese people from their own government. They know which side they are on and what they are supporting.
  - alistairSH 5y ago
    Sure, but at the same time, it should be possible for a citizen to have a positive view of their nation and also a negative view of their government. The media portrays some of these student groups as almost militantly pro-CCP (above and beyond pro-China). I like the US. But from 2016-2020 I had almost nothing positive to say about the government. And when asked about Trump by foreigners (usually while I was traveling abroad) I didn’t feel compelled to defend him just because he’s the current president.

platinumrad 5y ago

Yeah just like how it was the responsibility of muslims to prove that they're weren't one of the bad ones after 9/11 right?

yumraj 5y ago
I'm not aware of any Muslim student groups in the US that were using the language of social justice to silence criticism of the Taliban or Al-Qaida.
- platinumrad 5y ago
  I'm not talking about silencing criticism. I'm talking about this part: "One, and perhaps most effective, way would be for the Chinese student groups to support these protests to show that they are indeed distinct from the CCP government" I don't think they should be compelled to support protests, especially not ones deploying racist imagery, simply due to their nationality.
  - yumraj 5y ago
    What racist imagery was employed in those Olympic protest posters? They were depicting factual imagery and were in fact created by an Chinese Australian artist.
    - platinumrad 5y ago
      Factual imagery like a random athlete throwing a virus at the viewer. > and were in fact created by an Chinese Australian artist. This is gonna blow your mind, but I have seen an absurd amount of racism from the Chinese diaspora. Things like Taiwanese people calling Andrew Yang (who is himself descended from people from Taiwan) a CCP agent for having a completely milquetoast position on Taiwan for an American politican.
      - CogitoCogito 5y ago
        > This is gonna blow your mind, but I have seen an absurd amount of racism from the Chinese diaspora. Things like Taiwanese people calling Andrew Yang (who is himself descended from people from Taiwan) a CCP agent for having a completely milquetoast position on Taiwan for an American politican. How is calling Andrew Yang a CCP agent racist? What does it have to due with race at all?