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I'm glad that the decision was reversed. Sometimes speech is hurtful to groups, hard to hear, and even disputed but still important to share. I have strong feel

I'm glad that the decision was reversed. Sometimes speech is hurtful to groups, hard to hear, and even disputed but still important to share. I have strong feelings about the stifling of free speech by the CCP at home and abroad but I will stop at saying again that I am very glad the decision was changed and hope that this marks a turning point in the kowtowing of companies, universities, etc. to CCP demands on speech.

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
The cartoons were originally removed because they depict Chinese athletes graphically murdering people. Many people, myself included, view them as offensive, crass propaganda that will just further irrational hate against Chinese people. Since Trump was elected, the US has descended into what I can only describe as hysteria about China, which I think will be viewed in the same way as the McCarthy era is viewed today. The hysteria is fundamentally driven by deep insecurity about the US losing its geopolitical preeminence, which it has enjoyed since the end of WWII, and it is aided by a jingoistic media that uncritically propagates nationalistic narratives. The hysteria is not driven by anything China itself has specifically done. China hasn't launched any wars in decades, and has essentially just been focusing on its own economic development. Inside China, the view that the American public has of China is incomprehensible: living standards have been getting steadily better, and most people are optimistic about the future. But just the fact that China is growing is viewed as a strategic threat in the US, and since Trump, Bannon et al. came in and initiated a confrontational policy towards China, US public opinion has taken a dramatic turn. So I don't view this as an episode of the university "kowtowing" to "CCP" demands. It's just another example of grotesque propaganda, which caused a reaction on campus. The university initially decided to take the propaganda down, but now has been cowed by an opposite anti-Chinese reaction in the media and on social media, so the propaganda will stay up. Anyone who thinks the "CCP" controls dialogue in the US hasn't been paying attention over the last 5 years - the anti-Chinese messaging has been intense.
- atlasunshrugged 5y ago
  Having seen the cartoons I don't think they're anything that a college student doesn't seen 10 times a week on the shows they're watching, I doubt anyone was seriously traumatized by them. Well, one thing you failed to mention that the CCP has done that the posters do highlight is the genocide being perpetrated on the Uyghur people which seems quite rational for people across the world to be outraged by and want to put pressure on the government to end such practices. Indeed China hasn't launched any kinetic wars, how about trade wars (e.g. WTO ruling against China RE Rare Earths which was used to badger the Japanese over a border dispute), how about intense economic pressure like what is happening with Lithuania right now, how about rampant forced technology transfer across the world. Let's try to have an evenhanded debate here in good faith. I'm happy to admit there are many things I think America has done and is doing wrong, no country is perfect, but it doesn't serve your cause to pretend that certain events have never happened or to gaslight people.
  - platinumrad 5y ago
    It's pretty absurd to suggest that trade wars are even remotely equivalent to kinetic wars.
    - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
      I was more responding to the claim that China has done nothing but focus internally. That said, I disagree and think that generally kinetic wars are over and that economic warfare can be quite serious too. China was able to lift hundreds of millions out of people out of poverty because of trade, one of the greatest achievements in our lifetimes to improve life. By that logic, the repression of economic achievement should also be of significant consequence if it drives people elsewhere into poverty.
      - platinumrad 5y ago
        Kinetic wars are over? I guess that event in Afghanistan was a 20 year picnic then?
- mrtranscendence 5y ago
  > The hysteria is not driven by anything China itself has specifically done. That doesn't seem to be true. Whatever you think about the truth of China's treatment of Uighurs or Tibet, clearly people have strong opinions about what china itself has specifically done. And the government's behavior to its own ostensibly unoppressed citizens seems to me to border on dystopia; that again concerns things that China has or has not done. It feels like a bit of facile stubbornness to claim that no criticism of China is legitimate.
  - xg15 5y ago
    Many of those issues (e.g. Tibet) have been known for decades though. And yet up until the last few years, western governments had no problems at all doing business with China despite them. Only in the last few years did those issues suddenly become dealbreakers. That's a bit odd, at least.
    - actuator 5y ago
      It is not odd. There is definitely an economic reason and global power aspirations side to it. These are the same western countries otherwise which overlooked a genocide in East Pakistan which is now Bangladesh just because they needed a state for their guerilla warfare against Soviets. When India went to stop the genocide and fight for liberation of Bangladesh, it was threatened with US naval might. Morality is not why they are doing it but that doesn't mean the moral side should not be supported. The other reason being that CCP now has the economic muscle to influence narrative which was reserved to just West till now.
      - wolverine876 5y ago
        > When India went to stop the genocide and fight for liberation of Bangladesh, it was threatened with US naval might. For others reading, while the parent is entitled to their opinion, that is a very pro-Indian description of events. IIRC, many believe India created the situation in order to split Pakistan in half.
- riedel 5y ago
  Let me state as a non-US citizen, which also watches some developments in the US with bewilderment, that other parts of the world also see the recent developments in China massively critical. This is no hysteria but a bad awakening after years of hope that the Chinese government shares at least some of our most fundamental values. Yes China is only focusing on itself (or what it has defined as itself), but this is actually the worrying part.
  - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
    I follow non-English media as well, and I have seen the same sort of crude propaganda becoming increasingly prevalent in the media of US-allied states. Many of the cultural and political trends that begin in the US have a way of spreading. This is particularly true of the China narrative, because the US has pushed for its allies to go along with a confrontational policy towards China. > a bad awakening I have not seen people becoming more informed about China. Much the opposite: I have seen the rapid spread of a bizarre image of China that has almost nothing to do with the reality on the ground.
    - actuator 5y ago
      > have seen the rapid spread of a bizarre image of China that has almost nothing to do with the reality on the ground. Even the western propoganda will come with its own hyperbole. But some things are clear cut, like creating artificial islands and claiming rocks near other countries to claim maritime territory like in South China Sea. There are many more examples which are not helping CCP's case at this point. Criticism of what CCP is doing now is not criticism of Chinese people. Taiwan is a state which is majorly ethnically Han Chinese and it doesn't get the same criticism even though its past is also not all happy.
      - friedturkey 5y ago
        It’d be nice if people actually focused on the artificial island making or Taiwan’s independence, but “activists” (I’m not sure if that’s even the proper word in this instance) aren’t really concerned about that and most people don’t even know about the former. But an increasing number of people, especially Americans, really think the Chinese government/police really are just openly killing people in the streets with no consequence (lol), they’ve enslaved the entirety of Africa and stolen the land due to the debt of building a few trains, and other bizarre stuff. Any time anyone is like “I’ve been there and it’s not that bad,” people scream that you’re a shill and scream “WINNIE THE POOH” as if that does anything. The level is discourse involving the country is embarrassingly low, and when it reaches that level, it does just two things: breeds absolute hatred (hate crimes involving Asians are up) and pushes people not buying into it the the opposite direction of the propaganda.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  The Chinese Government is actively committing genocide against the Uyghur people. They literally have internment camps, multiple governments have denounced this, there are photos.
- rthomas6 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - friedturkey 5y ago
    It’s probably because saying anything positive about (forbidden country) gets you permanently labeled a CCP drone. May as well add “couldn’t help but notice you say Chinese people are just like people anywhere else. Curious.”
    - tsol 5y ago
      Of course Chinese people are like people elsewhere. Generally even those who are critical of China are really critical of the Chinese government, not the Chinese people.
    - evgen 5y ago
      This would be a valid point if the account in question did anything but post CCP apologia and parrot the latest talking points of the party. An example of a commenting history that does not get you immediately dismissed as a CCP drone would be something like your relatively new account, which mixes this CCP party-line support with random bits of Seattle commentary and a soupçon of 'big tech is bad' agitation. If it quacks like a duck we are not really going to be surprised if it tries to fly.
      - friedturkey 5y ago
        Yeah, just like anyone who openly mentions they worked for Facebook should ever be trusted under any circumstances. And we all know what "cybersecurity" means after a stint with that company. This is a dumb game to play. Absolute brain worms to think anyone against your ideas is a shill.
        rthomas6 5y ago
        No, just this one. All you have to do is look at the comment history and see for yourself.
- gojomo 5y ago
  They're expressive metaphorical cartoons from a critic of the CPC regime. Everyone knows Chinese athletes themselves aren't committing atrocities during the games. On the other hand, an actual Chinese state official tweeted a photorealistic fake image of an Australian soldier slitting the throat of an Afghan child. https://twitter.com/zlj517/status/1333214766806888448 https://twitter.com/zlj517/status/1333214766806888448 Which is more graphic, & more likely to engender hate?
  - pphysch 5y ago
    How are these remotely similar? The Chinese comic is symbolizing the actual war crimes of actual Australian soldiers against actual Afghan children. For which no one was held accountable IIRC. Olympic athletes are not committing war crimes or violence as suggested by the agitprop posters.
    - gojomo 5y ago
      You'd have to have a childlike naivete about figurative-cartoon communication to believe those cartoons "suggest" athletes, in their sportwear, are committing atrocities in Olympic-event-like tableaus. Perhaps living under a censorious regime creates such gullibility, & obliviousness to metaphor & sarcasm? (Separately: prosecutions of the Australian soldiers involved in the incidents Mr. Zhao "symbolized" are still possible – but as far as I can tell, none of the incidents involved the slitting of children's throats, as in his graphic photorealistic rendering.)
      - pphysch 5y ago
        > Perhaps living under a censorious regime creates such gullibility, & obliviousness to metaphor & sarcasm? Such is life here in America...
    - explodingman 5y ago
      Not sure if that is a troll or not. CCP policy and behaviour towards Xinjiang shows a clear intent to eradicate Uighur culture, possibly the Uighur people, on the part of the CCP state. Simlilarly for Hong Kong, Tibet. A warcrime by an Australian soldier is being dealt with as a matter of military discipline. There is no equivalency between the two. Pretending that a crime is equivalent to state genocide is classic "wolf warrior" trolling. A better equivalency would be between what's happening with the Uighurs and what happened to Australia's first nation people in the nineteenth century. Modern China does have more than a little in common with those old European colonial empires.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > China hasn't launched any wars in decades The Chinese Communist Party hasn't had the ability to launch wars for decades, though that has changed. The CCP takes pride in aggression toward other countries; look up 'wolf diplomats', for example. The CCP also censors critical speech in businesses worldwide, including the American film industry. Their military (it's the CCP's military, not the people of China's) regularly threatens India (including occasional shooting conflicts) and Taiwan, with forces sent into their neighbors' territories, and at least in the recent past, Japan. They've also used force to sieze parts of the South China Sea from neighbors such as the Philippines, Vietnam, and from international waters. Internally, the CCP has used security forces to brutally oppress people in Tibet (including a takeover of the Buddhist religion there), Xinjiang (Uyghurs), and Hong Kong, as well as many other civilians and groups not associated with any nationality or region (e.g., the Falun Gong). They also murdered people in Tiananmen Square, as we know well, on June 4, 1989. We should be protecting the freedom of Chinese people - from the CCP and from intolerance in our own country - not demonizing them. The problem is an organization that happens to be Chinese, the Chinese Communist Party. In fact, the people of China are their main victims. Americans of Chinese descent have no more to do with the CCP than Americans of Russian descent are responsible for Putin. I hope more Chinese people come to freedom in the US - I was hoping we'd take in a lot from Hong Kong.

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago

The cartoons were originally removed because they depict Chinese athletes graphically murdering people. Many people, myself included, view them as offensive, crass propaganda that will just further irrational hate against Chinese people. Since Trump was elected, the US has descended into what I can only describe as hysteria about China, which I think will be viewed in the same way as the McCarthy era is viewed today. The hysteria is fundamentally driven by deep insecurity about the US losing its geopolitical preeminence, which it has enjoyed since the end of WWII, and it is aided by a jingoistic media that uncritically propagates nationalistic narratives. The hysteria is not driven by anything China itself has specifically done. China hasn't launched any wars in decades, and has essentially just been focusing on its own economic development. Inside China, the view that the American public has of China is incomprehensible: living standards have been getting steadily better, and most people are optimistic about the future. But just the fact that China is growing is viewed as a strategic threat in the US, and since Trump, Bannon et al. came in and initiated a confrontational policy towards China, US public opinion has taken a dramatic turn. So I don't view this as an episode of the university "kowtowing" to "CCP" demands. It's just another example of grotesque propaganda, which caused a reaction on campus. The university initially decided to take the propaganda down, but now has been cowed by an opposite anti-Chinese reaction in the media and on social media, so the propaganda will stay up. Anyone who thinks the "CCP" controls dialogue in the US hasn't been paying attention over the last 5 years - the anti-Chinese messaging has been intense.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago
Having seen the cartoons I don't think they're anything that a college student doesn't seen 10 times a week on the shows they're watching, I doubt anyone was seriously traumatized by them. Well, one thing you failed to mention that the CCP has done that the posters do highlight is the genocide being perpetrated on the Uyghur people which seems quite rational for people across the world to be outraged by and want to put pressure on the government to end such practices. Indeed China hasn't launched any kinetic wars, how about trade wars (e.g. WTO ruling against China RE Rare Earths which was used to badger the Japanese over a border dispute), how about intense economic pressure like what is happening with Lithuania right now, how about rampant forced technology transfer across the world. Let's try to have an evenhanded debate here in good faith. I'm happy to admit there are many things I think America has done and is doing wrong, no country is perfect, but it doesn't serve your cause to pretend that certain events have never happened or to gaslight people.
- platinumrad 5y ago
  It's pretty absurd to suggest that trade wars are even remotely equivalent to kinetic wars.
  - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
    I was more responding to the claim that China has done nothing but focus internally. That said, I disagree and think that generally kinetic wars are over and that economic warfare can be quite serious too. China was able to lift hundreds of millions out of people out of poverty because of trade, one of the greatest achievements in our lifetimes to improve life. By that logic, the repression of economic achievement should also be of significant consequence if it drives people elsewhere into poverty.
    - platinumrad 5y ago
      Kinetic wars are over? I guess that event in Afghanistan was a 20 year picnic then?
mrtranscendence 5y ago
> The hysteria is not driven by anything China itself has specifically done. That doesn't seem to be true. Whatever you think about the truth of China's treatment of Uighurs or Tibet, clearly people have strong opinions about what china itself has specifically done. And the government's behavior to its own ostensibly unoppressed citizens seems to me to border on dystopia; that again concerns things that China has or has not done. It feels like a bit of facile stubbornness to claim that no criticism of China is legitimate.
- xg15 5y ago
  Many of those issues (e.g. Tibet) have been known for decades though. And yet up until the last few years, western governments had no problems at all doing business with China despite them. Only in the last few years did those issues suddenly become dealbreakers. That's a bit odd, at least.
  - actuator 5y ago
    It is not odd. There is definitely an economic reason and global power aspirations side to it. These are the same western countries otherwise which overlooked a genocide in East Pakistan which is now Bangladesh just because they needed a state for their guerilla warfare against Soviets. When India went to stop the genocide and fight for liberation of Bangladesh, it was threatened with US naval might. Morality is not why they are doing it but that doesn't mean the moral side should not be supported. The other reason being that CCP now has the economic muscle to influence narrative which was reserved to just West till now.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      > When India went to stop the genocide and fight for liberation of Bangladesh, it was threatened with US naval might. For others reading, while the parent is entitled to their opinion, that is a very pro-Indian description of events. IIRC, many believe India created the situation in order to split Pakistan in half.
riedel 5y ago
Let me state as a non-US citizen, which also watches some developments in the US with bewilderment, that other parts of the world also see the recent developments in China massively critical. This is no hysteria but a bad awakening after years of hope that the Chinese government shares at least some of our most fundamental values. Yes China is only focusing on itself (or what it has defined as itself), but this is actually the worrying part.
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  I follow non-English media as well, and I have seen the same sort of crude propaganda becoming increasingly prevalent in the media of US-allied states. Many of the cultural and political trends that begin in the US have a way of spreading. This is particularly true of the China narrative, because the US has pushed for its allies to go along with a confrontational policy towards China. > a bad awakening I have not seen people becoming more informed about China. Much the opposite: I have seen the rapid spread of a bizarre image of China that has almost nothing to do with the reality on the ground.
  - actuator 5y ago
    > have seen the rapid spread of a bizarre image of China that has almost nothing to do with the reality on the ground. Even the western propoganda will come with its own hyperbole. But some things are clear cut, like creating artificial islands and claiming rocks near other countries to claim maritime territory like in South China Sea. There are many more examples which are not helping CCP's case at this point. Criticism of what CCP is doing now is not criticism of Chinese people. Taiwan is a state which is majorly ethnically Han Chinese and it doesn't get the same criticism even though its past is also not all happy.
    - friedturkey 5y ago
      It’d be nice if people actually focused on the artificial island making or Taiwan’s independence, but “activists” (I’m not sure if that’s even the proper word in this instance) aren’t really concerned about that and most people don’t even know about the former. But an increasing number of people, especially Americans, really think the Chinese government/police really are just openly killing people in the streets with no consequence (lol), they’ve enslaved the entirety of Africa and stolen the land due to the debt of building a few trains, and other bizarre stuff. Any time anyone is like “I’ve been there and it’s not that bad,” people scream that you’re a shill and scream “WINNIE THE POOH” as if that does anything. The level is discourse involving the country is embarrassingly low, and when it reaches that level, it does just two things: breeds absolute hatred (hate crimes involving Asians are up) and pushes people not buying into it the the opposite direction of the propaganda.
micromacrofoot 5y ago
The Chinese Government is actively committing genocide against the Uyghur people. They literally have internment camps, multiple governments have denounced this, there are photos.
rthomas6 5y ago
[flagged]
- friedturkey 5y ago
  It’s probably because saying anything positive about (forbidden country) gets you permanently labeled a CCP drone. May as well add “couldn’t help but notice you say Chinese people are just like people anywhere else. Curious.”
  - tsol 5y ago
    Of course Chinese people are like people elsewhere. Generally even those who are critical of China are really critical of the Chinese government, not the Chinese people.
  - evgen 5y ago
    This would be a valid point if the account in question did anything but post CCP apologia and parrot the latest talking points of the party. An example of a commenting history that does not get you immediately dismissed as a CCP drone would be something like your relatively new account, which mixes this CCP party-line support with random bits of Seattle commentary and a soupçon of 'big tech is bad' agitation. If it quacks like a duck we are not really going to be surprised if it tries to fly.
    - friedturkey 5y ago
      Yeah, just like anyone who openly mentions they worked for Facebook should ever be trusted under any circumstances. And we all know what "cybersecurity" means after a stint with that company. This is a dumb game to play. Absolute brain worms to think anyone against your ideas is a shill.
      - rthomas6 5y ago
        No, just this one. All you have to do is look at the comment history and see for yourself.
gojomo 5y ago
They're expressive metaphorical cartoons from a critic of the CPC regime. Everyone knows Chinese athletes themselves aren't committing atrocities during the games. On the other hand, an actual Chinese state official tweeted a photorealistic fake image of an Australian soldier slitting the throat of an Afghan child. https://twitter.com/zlj517/status/1333214766806888448 https://twitter.com/zlj517/status/1333214766806888448 Which is more graphic, & more likely to engender hate?
- pphysch 5y ago
  How are these remotely similar? The Chinese comic is symbolizing the actual war crimes of actual Australian soldiers against actual Afghan children. For which no one was held accountable IIRC. Olympic athletes are not committing war crimes or violence as suggested by the agitprop posters.
  - gojomo 5y ago
    You'd have to have a childlike naivete about figurative-cartoon communication to believe those cartoons "suggest" athletes, in their sportwear, are committing atrocities in Olympic-event-like tableaus. Perhaps living under a censorious regime creates such gullibility, & obliviousness to metaphor & sarcasm? (Separately: prosecutions of the Australian soldiers involved in the incidents Mr. Zhao "symbolized" are still possible – but as far as I can tell, none of the incidents involved the slitting of children's throats, as in his graphic photorealistic rendering.)
    - pphysch 5y ago
      > Perhaps living under a censorious regime creates such gullibility, & obliviousness to metaphor & sarcasm? Such is life here in America...
  - explodingman 5y ago
    Not sure if that is a troll or not. CCP policy and behaviour towards Xinjiang shows a clear intent to eradicate Uighur culture, possibly the Uighur people, on the part of the CCP state. Simlilarly for Hong Kong, Tibet. A warcrime by an Australian soldier is being dealt with as a matter of military discipline. There is no equivalency between the two. Pretending that a crime is equivalent to state genocide is classic "wolf warrior" trolling. A better equivalency would be between what's happening with the Uighurs and what happened to Australia's first nation people in the nineteenth century. Modern China does have more than a little in common with those old European colonial empires.
wolverine876 5y ago
> China hasn't launched any wars in decades The Chinese Communist Party hasn't had the ability to launch wars for decades, though that has changed. The CCP takes pride in aggression toward other countries; look up 'wolf diplomats', for example. The CCP also censors critical speech in businesses worldwide, including the American film industry. Their military (it's the CCP's military, not the people of China's) regularly threatens India (including occasional shooting conflicts) and Taiwan, with forces sent into their neighbors' territories, and at least in the recent past, Japan. They've also used force to sieze parts of the South China Sea from neighbors such as the Philippines, Vietnam, and from international waters. Internally, the CCP has used security forces to brutally oppress people in Tibet (including a takeover of the Buddhist religion there), Xinjiang (Uyghurs), and Hong Kong, as well as many other civilians and groups not associated with any nationality or region (e.g., the Falun Gong). They also murdered people in Tiananmen Square, as we know well, on June 4, 1989. We should be protecting the freedom of Chinese people - from the CCP and from intolerance in our own country - not demonizing them. The problem is an organization that happens to be Chinese, the Chinese Communist Party. In fact, the people of China are their main victims. Americans of Chinese descent have no more to do with the CCP than Americans of Russian descent are responsible for Putin. I hope more Chinese people come to freedom in the US - I was hoping we'd take in a lot from Hong Kong.