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We need to figure out how to educate people enough for them to be able to separate the government from the people. I don't know how, but it's a common theme in

We need to figure out how to educate people enough for them to be able to separate the government from the people. I don't know how, but it's a common theme in the US (and probably elsewhere but I don't have as much context outside the US). From Japanese internment, to 9/11, to COVID, to China and their [gestures vaguely], we can't see to get it right.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago
Is it really true right now though? I know tons of people who feel very strongly about the actions of the CCP (I was just talking to an author who wrote a book about the Uyghur Genocide!) but almost universally they are angry at the political/ruling classes. I don't think most people believe that Chinese person = true believer. In my mind where it gets tricky is in forced tech transfer and the like where the CCP puts pressure on foreign workers and students to engage in illegal or unethical actions because they have leverage on them which is a classic cold war move but imo that shouldn't reflect on the individuals being pressured but the system that does so.
- yupper32 5y ago
  The Uyghur Genocide is probably not feeling this phenomenon too much, though I brought it up because that was one of the original reasons for the take down in the article. I imagine if you even know about the Uyghur Genocide you're probably more informed than most and can separate the CCP from your everyday citizen. But if the concerns are real and this turns violent against Chinese students, then my comment stands relevant. The Covid + China example is very real, though.
  - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
    Ah interesting, I guess I don't know many people who care about China issues but aren't informed enough to know about what's happening with the Uyghurs, tech transfer, Confucius Institutes, etc. To me it's still really odd just on the face of it to take Covid and blame the average Chinese person who have basically been locked in their homes at the will of Xi (whether this is the right or wrong covid mitigation strategy isn't my point here, rather that they had no political recourse to change it as an individual) and have nothing to do with deciding the research in labs, national policy even via elections, or now whether they can literally travel anywhere and potentially expose other people. But I can see how that would be an easy meme to spread especially with the lab leak theory gaining more credence (although maybe that is for the best and it becomes less focused on a culture that has wet markets and all those photos which I actually do think caused some anti-Chinese sentiment because they are somewhat shocking if you're used to buying your meat in a grocery store).
    - yupper32 5y ago
      I've seen the racism related to Covid + China first hand, and hate anti-asian crimes locally for me are up a ton: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/california/articles/2022-01-25/san-francisco-reports-big-increase-in-anti-asian-hate-crimes https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/california/articles/... Granted, a shocking half of the 2021 victims were apparently from one man. No idea how that happens. Regardless, still up a bunch.
      - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
        I had seen some headline that many of the SF victims were from one person but wow, 1/2! That is just terrifying. But yes, the rate increase is definitely worrying, I hope it falls back down soon given there seems to be much less rhetoric from this admin blaming China directly (or at least not in such crass terms).
  - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
    You would be surprised by how much the average person in China knows about the US government's accusations regarding China and the Uyghurs. I would venture that most people in China know considerably more about the situation than most Americans. It begins even with just basic knowledge like: * Where is Xinjiang? * Can you name any famous Uyghur people? * Have you been to Xinjiang? * What is the origin of the conflict in Xinjiang?
crusher_joe 5y ago
yumraj 5y ago
> We need to figure out how to educate people enough for them to be able to separate the government from the people. One, and perhaps most effective, way would be for the Chinese student groups to support these protests to show that they are indeed distinct from the CCP government, instead of using the language of social justice to silence criticism of the Chinese government's human rights record
- alistairSH 5y ago
  But are these student groups distinct from the CCP? Reading this and several other recent posts about Chinese student groups, it appears some/many of them are very much pro-CCP. Whether that's because those students are 100% indoctrinated or simply scared of retaliation against family black home, I do not know.
  - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
    +1 here, my understanding is that many of these student groups are actually just astro-turfing orgs to give a veneer of credibility while being used by the CCP to spread their message, keep tabs on students while abroad, and spread influence.
  - temp8964 5y ago
    Not just that. Chinese student associations work for the communist party. They directly work under the Chinese embassy. They are like foreign branches of the Chinese government. https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/07/chinas-long-arm-reaches-into-american-campuses-chinese-students-scholars-association-university-communist-party/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/07/chinas-long-arm-reaches... "But Southwest CSSA’s ties to the consulate are far closer than those of the individual groups at universities. Its bylaws state that all presidential candidates must first receive approval from the Chinese Consulate in Los Angeles before the election can take place. Southwest CSSA sometimes holds events inside the consulate itself."
  - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
    > Whether that's because those students are 100% indoctrinated or simply scared of retaliation against family black home, I do not know. Most people in China have a fairly positive view of their country, which is not surprising, given how massively life has improved over the course of just one generation. A lot of students go abroad, and then are shocked at the sheer amount of hatred towards China and demonization of the country. It's not that the students are brainwashed to like China. It's just that they have an entirely different perspective.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago

Is it really true right now though? I know tons of people who feel very strongly about the actions of the CCP (I was just talking to an author who wrote a book about the Uyghur Genocide!) but almost universally they are angry at the political/ruling classes. I don't think most people believe that Chinese person = true believer. In my mind where it gets tricky is in forced tech transfer and the like where the CCP puts pressure on foreign workers and students to engage in illegal or unethical actions because they have leverage on them which is a classic cold war move but imo that shouldn't reflect on the individuals being pressured but the system that does so.

yupper32 5y ago
The Uyghur Genocide is probably not feeling this phenomenon too much, though I brought it up because that was one of the original reasons for the take down in the article. I imagine if you even know about the Uyghur Genocide you're probably more informed than most and can separate the CCP from your everyday citizen. But if the concerns are real and this turns violent against Chinese students, then my comment stands relevant. The Covid + China example is very real, though.
- atlasunshrugged 5y ago
  Ah interesting, I guess I don't know many people who care about China issues but aren't informed enough to know about what's happening with the Uyghurs, tech transfer, Confucius Institutes, etc. To me it's still really odd just on the face of it to take Covid and blame the average Chinese person who have basically been locked in their homes at the will of Xi (whether this is the right or wrong covid mitigation strategy isn't my point here, rather that they had no political recourse to change it as an individual) and have nothing to do with deciding the research in labs, national policy even via elections, or now whether they can literally travel anywhere and potentially expose other people. But I can see how that would be an easy meme to spread especially with the lab leak theory gaining more credence (although maybe that is for the best and it becomes less focused on a culture that has wet markets and all those photos which I actually do think caused some anti-Chinese sentiment because they are somewhat shocking if you're used to buying your meat in a grocery store).
  - yupper32 5y ago
    I've seen the racism related to Covid + China first hand, and hate anti-asian crimes locally for me are up a ton: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/california/articles/2022-01-25/san-francisco-reports-big-increase-in-anti-asian-hate-crimes https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/california/articles/... Granted, a shocking half of the 2021 victims were apparently from one man. No idea how that happens. Regardless, still up a bunch.
    - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
      I had seen some headline that many of the SF victims were from one person but wow, 1/2! That is just terrifying. But yes, the rate increase is definitely worrying, I hope it falls back down soon given there seems to be much less rhetoric from this admin blaming China directly (or at least not in such crass terms).
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  You would be surprised by how much the average person in China knows about the US government's accusations regarding China and the Uyghurs. I would venture that most people in China know considerably more about the situation than most Americans. It begins even with just basic knowledge like: * Where is Xinjiang? * Can you name any famous Uyghur people? * Have you been to Xinjiang? * What is the origin of the conflict in Xinjiang?

crusher_joe 5y ago

yumraj 5y ago

> We need to figure out how to educate people enough for them to be able to separate the government from the people. One, and perhaps most effective, way would be for the Chinese student groups to support these protests to show that they are indeed distinct from the CCP government, instead of using the language of social justice to silence criticism of the Chinese government's human rights record

alistairSH 5y ago
But are these student groups distinct from the CCP? Reading this and several other recent posts about Chinese student groups, it appears some/many of them are very much pro-CCP. Whether that's because those students are 100% indoctrinated or simply scared of retaliation against family black home, I do not know.
- atlasunshrugged 5y ago
  +1 here, my understanding is that many of these student groups are actually just astro-turfing orgs to give a veneer of credibility while being used by the CCP to spread their message, keep tabs on students while abroad, and spread influence.
- temp8964 5y ago
  Not just that. Chinese student associations work for the communist party. They directly work under the Chinese embassy. They are like foreign branches of the Chinese government. https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/07/chinas-long-arm-reaches-into-american-campuses-chinese-students-scholars-association-university-communist-party/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/07/chinas-long-arm-reaches... "But Southwest CSSA’s ties to the consulate are far closer than those of the individual groups at universities. Its bylaws state that all presidential candidates must first receive approval from the Chinese Consulate in Los Angeles before the election can take place. Southwest CSSA sometimes holds events inside the consulate itself."
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  > Whether that's because those students are 100% indoctrinated or simply scared of retaliation against family black home, I do not know. Most people in China have a fairly positive view of their country, which is not surprising, given how massively life has improved over the course of just one generation. A lot of students go abroad, and then are shocked at the sheer amount of hatred towards China and demonization of the country. It's not that the students are brainwashed to like China. It's just that they have an entirely different perspective.