3 ms·

The way he describes friction reminds of the book Anathem by Neal Stephenson. Good book with a giant obstacle of tons of made up vocabulary. I read that a long

by sidibe 5y ago

The way he describes friction reminds of the book Anathem by Neal Stephenson. Good book with a giant obstacle of tons of made up vocabulary. I read that a long time ago, and now I'm not sure how much I enjoyed the story/characters and how much of it was just a different level of immersion and satisfaction from getting through the friction.

gameswithgo 5y ago
It took me about 3 years of off and on attempts to get past page 20 or so, but it was worth it when I finally did. Eventually the lingo clicks.
austinl 5y ago
If you liked Anathem, I'd recommend reading Gene Wolfe's series, The Book of the New Sun [1]. I didn't quite like it the first time, but decided to reread the series because I kept thinking about it a year later. The world is deep, and Wolfe does a great job of revealing parts of it, bit by bit. The use of vocabulary in the series is so unique that someone produced a companion dictionary called the Lexicon Urthus [2]. There's also a great podcast called Alzabo Soup, that covers the series in depth, chapter by chapter. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_the_New_Sun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_the_New_Sun [2] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5970607-lexicon-urthus https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5970607-lexicon-urthu... [3] https://www.alzabosoup.com https://www.alzabosoup.com
- pickettd 5y ago
  As an additional data point - I've read Anathem multiple times and have loved it every time but I read The Book of the New Sun series and really disliked it (though to be fair, I only read TBotNS series once). But I know that TBotNS gets great reviews. So as always with books, your mileage may vary.
  - svachalek 5y ago
    Gene Wolfe (the author of TBotNS) loves unreliable narrators. His books are almost like a game of trying to figure out how exactly he is lying to you, with only the flaws in the narration as your guide. They don't come to a satisfying conclusion where all is revealed to you; you may never even realize you've been tricked. It's another example of friction, you have to realize the game you have entered, and be willing to figure out a novel (or in this case trilogy) sized puzzle, where the puzzle pieces are buried in perfectly ordinary prose. If it sounds like fun, and you're up for the challenge, his books can be a unique pleasure. If not, you will miss out on a lot of the more interesting things that are happening between the lines. If you're interested in the concept I recommend Fifth Head of Cerberus as a better entry point into Wolfe's writing. It's a collection of 3 novellas set on the same planet. They are inter-related but each is basically its own story-puzzle, in a much more digestible size than New Sun.
- victorcharlie 5y ago
  I really _really_ tried to enjoy The Shadow of the Torturer but I couldn't fall into rhythm I guess. As English is my second language, I had to struggle to know if a word was invented or just obscure English (I found that the author uses a fucktonne of the latter after I finished it). And I hate needing a glossary to read a novel (looking at you Tolkien). It struck to me like an 80s animated movie: extremely rich from a technical point of view but, well, not a good history and even boring for some people (think about Vampire Hunter D or Angel's Egg. For the record, I love these movies). Meh, I'll give it another go, after I finish Blindsight from Peter Watts (2006). Thanks for reminding me of that saga!
  - austinl 5y ago
    I couldn't imagine trying to read Wolfe with English as a second language — definitely commendable! One thing I'd recommend if you're giving it another go is to read the chapters, then listen to Alzabo Soup (the podcast) afterwards. It's a spoiler-light discussion of the book, and they highlight a lot of things I missed on the first read. Another recommendation is to try the Book of the Long Sun series instead. I actually recommend that to folks more frequently if they aren't sci-fi readers. I think it's a bit more approachable in terms of language, and the tone is very different. There's also no character like Severian in that series, which I think is a good thing.
    - victorcharlie 5y ago
      Hey thanks for the suggestion! :) You know, I found Severian to be really interesting as a character. I wanted to see how he turned out and expected a lot of development... But the book falls kinda short. I always tended to stick to Sci-fi but recently I found that I didn't dislike Fantasy as I thought (I love the books from Brandon Sanderson). Regarding the obscure English: I _loved_ learning those words as I have a thing for old and obscure words, you should see the face of my friends when I speak on _proper Spanish_ but they can't get a thing hahah ;D Have a nice one!
- rendall 5y ago
  The Book of the New Sun is my favorite series of all time, and the only one I have read 3 times, first when I was 13, and the last after 40. The first two times, I did not have a clear idea of what was happening, just thought it was beautiful. The third time I actually got a grasp of the narrative arc, understanding who Severian was and who he became. Just, a marvelous series.
giraffe_lady 5y ago
I've never really heard it talked about explicitly so I don't have vocabulary for it but I think playing with this is a fairly common device in fiction. It also fills a similar role as throwing a bunch of languages/writing systems or fiction formats does at you does. I'm thinking of 'always coming home' and 'the last samurai.' Each kind of disorients you at first and obscures parts of the books, but then is rewarding as you learn them and reveal those elements. Definitely notable when it's tweaked up really high like stephenson likes to do, but I think that's a knob a lot of authors twist to varying degrees.
larksimian 5y ago
Loved Anathem both for the language and for the ideas in it. Rationalist monasticism has such a weird draw for me, despite being something I'll never do. If you like books with their own language, Hannu Rajaniemi's Jean le Flambeur trilogy does it more and better than anything else I've read (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7562764-the-quantum-thief https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7562764-the-quantum-thie...). It actually makes me question my interaction with regular language, since there's so many words that you can barely grasp in there... but I wasn't super bothered and thought I understood it sort of ok. But I doubt I could really explain them if pressed too, they just sort of felt well defined based on context that I accumulated. It made me think that my brain just doesn't go very in depth with words and is pleased with a shallow contextual understanding of what they mean. Sort of like the protagonist(such as he is, more like primary victim) of Blindsight by Peter Watts(he's a science communicator that can sort of get the shape of concepts at a shallow level, but never really understands them).
db48x 5y ago
I really enjoyed Anathem, but I don’t think that the vocabulary is supposed to be an obstacle; it is supposed to be a clue. The word “anathem” in the title should be a mystery but should also remind you of both “anathema” and “anthem”. Once you finally find out exactly what it means in the world of the book then you should see how those words both fit really well. At that point you probably won’t have any idea _why_ those words fit so well, but once you’ve finished the book you should be able to see that it is not merely the author’s contrivance; it was a clue to the deeper plot of the book (or to the nature of reality, if you take it seriously enough…).

by sidibe 5y ago

gameswithgo 5y ago

It took me about 3 years of off and on attempts to get past page 20 or so, but it was worth it when I finally did. Eventually the lingo clicks.

austinl 5y ago

If you liked Anathem, I'd recommend reading Gene Wolfe's series, The Book of the New Sun [1]. I didn't quite like it the first time, but decided to reread the series because I kept thinking about it a year later. The world is deep, and Wolfe does a great job of revealing parts of it, bit by bit. The use of vocabulary in the series is so unique that someone produced a companion dictionary called the Lexicon Urthus [2]. There's also a great podcast called Alzabo Soup, that covers the series in depth, chapter by chapter. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_the_New_Sun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_the_New_Sun [2] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5970607-lexicon-urthus https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5970607-lexicon-urthu... [3] https://www.alzabosoup.com https://www.alzabosoup.com

pickettd 5y ago
As an additional data point - I've read Anathem multiple times and have loved it every time but I read The Book of the New Sun series and really disliked it (though to be fair, I only read TBotNS series once). But I know that TBotNS gets great reviews. So as always with books, your mileage may vary.
- svachalek 5y ago
  Gene Wolfe (the author of TBotNS) loves unreliable narrators. His books are almost like a game of trying to figure out how exactly he is lying to you, with only the flaws in the narration as your guide. They don't come to a satisfying conclusion where all is revealed to you; you may never even realize you've been tricked. It's another example of friction, you have to realize the game you have entered, and be willing to figure out a novel (or in this case trilogy) sized puzzle, where the puzzle pieces are buried in perfectly ordinary prose. If it sounds like fun, and you're up for the challenge, his books can be a unique pleasure. If not, you will miss out on a lot of the more interesting things that are happening between the lines. If you're interested in the concept I recommend Fifth Head of Cerberus as a better entry point into Wolfe's writing. It's a collection of 3 novellas set on the same planet. They are inter-related but each is basically its own story-puzzle, in a much more digestible size than New Sun.
victorcharlie 5y ago
I really _really_ tried to enjoy The Shadow of the Torturer but I couldn't fall into rhythm I guess. As English is my second language, I had to struggle to know if a word was invented or just obscure English (I found that the author uses a fucktonne of the latter after I finished it). And I hate needing a glossary to read a novel (looking at you Tolkien). It struck to me like an 80s animated movie: extremely rich from a technical point of view but, well, not a good history and even boring for some people (think about Vampire Hunter D or Angel's Egg. For the record, I love these movies). Meh, I'll give it another go, after I finish Blindsight from Peter Watts (2006). Thanks for reminding me of that saga!
- austinl 5y ago
  I couldn't imagine trying to read Wolfe with English as a second language — definitely commendable! One thing I'd recommend if you're giving it another go is to read the chapters, then listen to Alzabo Soup (the podcast) afterwards. It's a spoiler-light discussion of the book, and they highlight a lot of things I missed on the first read. Another recommendation is to try the Book of the Long Sun series instead. I actually recommend that to folks more frequently if they aren't sci-fi readers. I think it's a bit more approachable in terms of language, and the tone is very different. There's also no character like Severian in that series, which I think is a good thing.
  - victorcharlie 5y ago
    Hey thanks for the suggestion! :) You know, I found Severian to be really interesting as a character. I wanted to see how he turned out and expected a lot of development... But the book falls kinda short. I always tended to stick to Sci-fi but recently I found that I didn't dislike Fantasy as I thought (I love the books from Brandon Sanderson). Regarding the obscure English: I _loved_ learning those words as I have a thing for old and obscure words, you should see the face of my friends when I speak on _proper Spanish_ but they can't get a thing hahah ;D Have a nice one!
rendall 5y ago
The Book of the New Sun is my favorite series of all time, and the only one I have read 3 times, first when I was 13, and the last after 40. The first two times, I did not have a clear idea of what was happening, just thought it was beautiful. The third time I actually got a grasp of the narrative arc, understanding who Severian was and who he became. Just, a marvelous series.

giraffe_lady 5y ago

I've never really heard it talked about explicitly so I don't have vocabulary for it but I think playing with this is a fairly common device in fiction. It also fills a similar role as throwing a bunch of languages/writing systems or fiction formats does at you does. I'm thinking of 'always coming home' and 'the last samurai.' Each kind of disorients you at first and obscures parts of the books, but then is rewarding as you learn them and reveal those elements. Definitely notable when it's tweaked up really high like stephenson likes to do, but I think that's a knob a lot of authors twist to varying degrees.

larksimian 5y ago

Loved Anathem both for the language and for the ideas in it. Rationalist monasticism has such a weird draw for me, despite being something I'll never do. If you like books with their own language, Hannu Rajaniemi's Jean le Flambeur trilogy does it more and better than anything else I've read (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7562764-the-quantum-thief https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7562764-the-quantum-thie...). It actually makes me question my interaction with regular language, since there's so many words that you can barely grasp in there... but I wasn't super bothered and thought I understood it sort of ok. But I doubt I could really explain them if pressed too, they just sort of felt well defined based on context that I accumulated. It made me think that my brain just doesn't go very in depth with words and is pleased with a shallow contextual understanding of what they mean. Sort of like the protagonist(such as he is, more like primary victim) of Blindsight by Peter Watts(he's a science communicator that can sort of get the shape of concepts at a shallow level, but never really understands them).

db48x 5y ago

I really enjoyed Anathem, but I don’t think that the vocabulary is supposed to be an obstacle; it is supposed to be a clue. The word “anathem” in the title should be a mystery but should also remind you of both “anathema” and “anthem”. Once you finally find out exactly what it means in the world of the book then you should see how those words both fit really well. At that point you probably won’t have any idea _why_ those words fit so well, but once you’ve finished the book you should be able to see that it is not merely the author’s contrivance; it was a clue to the deeper plot of the book (or to the nature of reality, if you take it seriously enough…).