13 ms·
U.S. university reverses decision to remove Olympic protest posters
- duxup 5y agoThere's a weird intersection of nationalism and personality where folks behave as if they're almost one and the same. Any criticism toward a nation's actions is a personal attack by default it seems. I've got strong feelings about China's leadership, it has almost nothing to do with the locals.
- platinumrad 5y ago"It has almost nothing to do with the locals" so why was there a poster depicting an ordinary athlete throwing a virus at the viewer? Tell me what this accomplishes aside from associating the pandemic (which is widely hated for obvious reasons) with a random chinese person? Funny how the downvotes keep on coming in but nobody is shameless enough to defend it.
- Freak_NL 5y agoUsing the image of a person in a cartoon to represent a state actor (especially when adorned with symbols strongly associated with that state such as a Pickelhaube for Prussia, or in this case simply a national flag) is one of the oldest forms of political commentary. You can see it in the political cartoons of most major newspapers.
- platinumrad 5y ago1. There is a huge difference between an athlete, who is an ordinary citizen, and a soldier, who deploys violence on behalf of the state. 2. This isn't going to be popular, but a lot of anti-Prussian propaganda was racist. (And if you're about to say "ackshully, Prussian isn't a race" please consider that the colloquial usage of "racism" encompasses a number of other prejudices and those prejudices aren't suddenly excusable because they aren't technically based on your definition of "race.")
- bllguo 5y agoI read this as "western political cartoons have a proud tradition of racist imagery," which is not a very convincing rebuttal
- chrischen 5y agoIf the locals associate with China’s leadership and you are against China’s leadership, then you are effectively against the locals…
- duxup 5y ago> associate with China’s leadership What does that mean?
- Wiseacre 5y agoActually deciding to become a member of the Chinese communist party versus just being a Chinese citizen?
- wolverine876 5y agoIf membership is necessary for you or your family to get ahead, for your kids to get a good education, etc., it might not signal support of the CCP.
- duxup 5y agoIf I'm expressing some disagreement about policy and the Chinese government I'm probably not counting who is or isn't a party member. And at least generally just being a party member of a party anywhere doesn't mean any individual always agrees with every policy, and I certainly don't assume they get to make policy.
- skeeter2020 5y agoExactly, but America's probably not a great market to sell this sort of distinction.
- LAC-Tech 5y agoReally? I don't think I've met a single american who seems happy with their government, no matter which way they lean or which colour tie the president has. But I've still met a lot of proud Americans. Which nation do you think this sort of distinction might be better sold in?
- asow92 5y agoWe still get called racist when we try to bring up this distinction.
- yupper32 5y agoWe need to figure out how to educate people enough for them to be able to separate the government from the people. I don't know how, but it's a common theme in the US (and probably elsewhere but I don't have as much context outside the US). From Japanese internment, to 9/11, to COVID, to China and their [gestures vaguely], we can't see to get it right.
- atlasunshrugged 5y agoIs it really true right now though? I know tons of people who feel very strongly about the actions of the CCP (I was just talking to an author who wrote a book about the Uyghur Genocide!) but almost universally they are angry at the political/ruling classes. I don't think most people believe that Chinese person = true believer. In my mind where it gets tricky is in forced tech transfer and the like where the CCP puts pressure on foreign workers and students to engage in illegal or unethical actions because they have leverage on them which is a classic cold war move but imo that shouldn't reflect on the individuals being pressured but the system that does so.
- yupper32 5y agoThe Uyghur Genocide is probably not feeling this phenomenon too much, though I brought it up because that was one of the original reasons for the take down in the article. I imagine if you even know about the Uyghur Genocide you're probably more informed than most and can separate the CCP from your everyday citizen. But if the concerns are real and this turns violent against Chinese students, then my comment stands relevant. The Covid + China example is very real, though.
- atlasunshrugged 5y agoAh interesting, I guess I don't know many people who care about China issues but aren't informed enough to know about what's happening with the Uyghurs, tech transfer, Confucius Institutes, etc. To me it's still really odd just on the face of it to take Covid and blame the average Chinese person who have basically been locked in their homes at the will of Xi (whether this is the right or wrong covid mitigation strategy isn't my point here, rather that they had no political recourse to change it as an individual) and have nothing to do with deciding the research in labs, national policy even via elections, or now whether they can literally travel anywhere and potentially expose other people. But I can see how that would be an easy meme to spread especially with the lab leak theory gaining more credence (although maybe that is for the best and it becomes less focused on a culture that has wet markets and all those photos which I actually do think caused some anti-Chinese sentiment because they are somewhat shocking if you're used to buying your meat in a grocery store).
- atlasunshrugged 5y agoI'm glad that the decision was reversed. Sometimes speech is hurtful to groups, hard to hear, and even disputed but still important to share. I have strong feelings about the stifling of free speech by the CCP at home and abroad but I will stop at saying again that I am very glad the decision was changed and hope that this marks a turning point in the kowtowing of companies, universities, etc. to CCP demands on speech.
- DiogenesKynikos 5y agoThe cartoons were originally removed because they depict Chinese athletes graphically murdering people. Many people, myself included, view them as offensive, crass propaganda that will just further irrational hate against Chinese people. Since Trump was elected, the US has descended into what I can only describe as hysteria about China, which I think will be viewed in the same way as the McCarthy era is viewed today. The hysteria is fundamentally driven by deep insecurity about the US losing its geopolitical preeminence, which it has enjoyed since the end of WWII, and it is aided by a jingoistic media that uncritically propagates nationalistic narratives. The hysteria is not driven by anything China itself has specifically done. China hasn't launched any wars in decades, and has essentially just been focusing on its own economic development. Inside China, the view that the American public has of China is incomprehensible: living standards have been getting steadily better, and most people are optimistic about the future. But just the fact that China is growing is viewed as a strategic threat in the US, and since Trump, Bannon et al. came in and initiated a confrontational policy towards China, US public opinion has taken a dramatic turn. So I don't view this as an episode of the university "kowtowing" to "CCP" demands. It's just another example of grotesque propaganda, which caused a reaction on campus. The university initially decided to take the propaganda down, but now has been cowed by an opposite anti-Chinese reaction in the media and on social media, so the propaganda will stay up. Anyone who thinks the "CCP" controls dialogue in the US hasn't been paying attention over the last 5 years - the anti-Chinese messaging has been intense.
- atlasunshrugged 5y agoHaving seen the cartoons I don't think they're anything that a college student doesn't seen 10 times a week on the shows they're watching, I doubt anyone was seriously traumatized by them. Well, one thing you failed to mention that the CCP has done that the posters do highlight is the genocide being perpetrated on the Uyghur people which seems quite rational for people across the world to be outraged by and want to put pressure on the government to end such practices. Indeed China hasn't launched any kinetic wars, how about trade wars (e.g. WTO ruling against China RE Rare Earths which was used to badger the Japanese over a border dispute), how about intense economic pressure like what is happening with Lithuania right now, how about rampant forced technology transfer across the world. Let's try to have an evenhanded debate here in good faith. I'm happy to admit there are many things I think America has done and is doing wrong, no country is perfect, but it doesn't serve your cause to pretend that certain events have never happened or to gaslight people.
- asow92 5y agoGlad that they reversed this. The Chinese people are not the Chinese government and all governments should be open to scrutiny in a free society.
- netsharc 5y agoCan't blame the CCP for trying, the same argument of racism has worked really well against any criticism of the Israeli state... (I say with a heavy dose of cynicism)
- riedel 5y agoI think both are truly believing that criticism is racially motivated. Unfortunately, history actually tells us in both cases they kind of have a point. I think we have to accept the fundamental critism of our criticism until we have actually proven we aren't racist.
- asow92 5y agoSo we might be racist for calling out genocide and ethnic cleansing?
- platinumrad 5y agoYes, I think it's pretty racist to depict a random chinese athlete throwing a virus at the viewer.
- asow92 5y agoThat's not what I asked.
- platinumrad 5y agoThe manner in which you call something out matters. If I make a poster calling out terrorism and depict an arab athlete throwing a bomb at the viewer then I think it would be pretty counterproductive and, yes, racist.
- bigcat123 5y ago[dead]
- guelo 5y agoFunny how "inciting ethnic hatred" is the same reason given by repressive American governments for banning discussions of racial issues in schools.
- dillondoyle 5y agoI think american governments over stretches it. but yeah I do think it's ironic and sad that the ultra conservative school boards and q people who push that junk simultaneously hate CCP for doing the same thing. Though the aforementioned school board idiots probably don't even understand (or if they do, gross) that they are in fact perpetrating the same 'racism' they are standing up against.
- hunterb123 5y agoCritical race theory != discussion of racial issues Noone banned discussing race, they banned a political marxist agenda.
- mrtranscendence 5y agoCritical race theory != a political marxist agenda and I'm baffled that people think so. Banning it is just so much "don't talk about what we or our ancestors ever did wrong" babble.
- dqpb 5y agoThere is a very small number of people who actually know what critical race theory is.
- dshpala 5y agoAnd of course "ancestors" conveniently go only couple of hundred years back?
- bllguo 5y agonot sure what this is insinuating, but the US is only a couple of hundred years old, so what exactly is so unbelievable here
- MomoXenosaga 5y agoI don't give a flying fuck about sports so I don't care either way. But did you know the alternative site for the Winter Olympics was Kazakhstan? Yeah they dodged a bullet there- literally. Nobody in "polite countries" wants these events anymore. Norway or Switzerland don't need more tourists and white elephants. Organising the Olympics hasn't been worth it for a long time.
- ramesh31 5y ago>Organising the Olympics hasn't been worth it for a long time. The games are great but the process is not. They need to moved to a fixed site for both winter and summer. Then countries can just take turns each year setting the theme, ceremonies, decorations, etc. and handling the logistics of it.
- inglor_cz 5y agoJust locate them in Greece permanently. At least the summer ones. It is the birthplace of the very idea and the Greek economy could profit from the visitors. It would be cool to have Mt. Olympus literally on the horizon when competing.
- chrischen 5y agoWhy would countries bid to help boost the economy of Greece?
- snovv_crash 5y agoGreece could claim copyright, in the same way that France claims exclusivity on Champagne.
- inglor_cz 5y agoWell, seriously, it is in the interest of the EU at least to provide Greece with some hard cash not in form of further debt. The UK could agree because they have a historically good relationship with Greece. Russia could agree because Greece is Orthodox and culturally important for Russian Orthodoxy. China could agree if they got the job to reconstruct the old Olympic venue. They already own a port in Greece (and an important one, Piraeus). Israel and the oil sheikhdoms could agree because it is in their neighbourhood and a major source of harmless fun. Egypt could agree just to piss Erdogan off.
- pphysch 5y ago"I hate the government, not the people" means "I don't like those foreigners ruling themselves", i.e. a colonial mentality. People act like there's a Demon Portal in Zhongnanhai where CCP Officials emerge from a different plane to subjugate the Real Chinese People. In reality, the government of China is made of... normal Chinese people with leadership/bureaucracy skills. You can't "separate" these two.
- temp8964 5y agoIf what you said is true, the communist party doesn’t need to suppress free speech of the Chinese people.
- pphysch 5y agoCall me an authoritarian, but I think it is okay to suppress "free speech" like "let's gather at this location on 9/11 to learn methods used by $VIOLENT_TERRORIST_GROUP" or "kill all $ETHNIC_GROUP". At least, I am not aware of a single government that allows such speech. Are you?
- hunterb123 5y agoI disagree with your premise, but that's not his point. His point was if it was the people's will, you wouldn't need authoritarianism.
- pphysch 5y agoIf you presume that hundreds of millions of people have a monolithic "will" i.e. they agree on pretty much every policy decision: 1) you might not need government at all and 2) you are living in a fantasy world
- hunterb123 5y agoWhat percentage of people do you think are oppressed, censored, and forced then? The choices of the CCP are their choices by your own admission it can't be all the people. The people defending the CCP are either: 1) delusional 2) 50 cent shills
- causi 5y ago"Some Chinese students in the U.S. often don't realize that it's possible to be both victim and oppressor at the same time," Oppression is like domestic abuse: being the victim of it makes you more likely to perpetrate it yourself, not less.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- xg15 5y agoIsn't this completely at odds with all the usual anti-racism arguments?
- causi 5y agoWhether it agrees with them or not, that's just how humans work. You abuse them, individually or as a group or as a nation, and they tend to abuse others. Post-colonial African nations oppress their people, Israel mistreats Palestinians, post-colonial China killed millions of its own people, post-Tsarist Russia had the purges and the Holodomor, the US occupies and abuses Haiti and then when they leave the Garde d'Haiti spends decades doing the same thing. It goes on and on and on.
- dahdum 5y agoOne of these posters depicts a Chinese athlete curling a virus towards the viewer. How is that not a racist dog whistle?
- platinumrad 5y agoAbsolutely absurd for this to be buried.
- dqpb 5y agoChina is a country, not a race.
- platinumrad 5y agoAnd athletes are ordinary citizens and not representatives of the state.
- dqpb 5y agoAside from the fact that they are literally wearing their country's flag, I tend to agree with you.
- dragonwriter 5y agoWhile etymologically derived from “race”, the word “racist” doesn't observe the artificial (and, actually, grounded in race essentialism which is itself a racist ideology) artificial distinction between target groups being labelled as a “race” vs a “nationality” or “ethnicity”, and applies equally when the basis of bigotry labelled is on any of those grounds.
- dqpb 5y ago> the word “racist” doesn't observe the artificial distinction… Words aren’t observers. It’s you who doesn’t observe the distinction.
- Freak_NL 5y agoThe anonymous athlete adorned with the Chinese flag represents the Chinese state; this is a common visual cue in political cartoons. The artist could have used a less subtle design choice like a panda in a tracksuit (similar to how the US can be represented by Uncle Sam), but it would make the posters comical and it would detract from the chosen art style and references to the historic style of poster design these hint at as well as the message behind the posters.
- jdrc 5y agoThat title has too many negatives
- vmception 5y agoReally glad to see organizations "with a platform" use their platform to say "not my problem." I can respect the attempt that people have made to force compliance where the law does not help, all of those current attempts can be co-opted easily. I just watched people say it was inclusive to remove someone from a position for a view expressed outside of work beforehand that has never impacted their work, when the opposite could equally be argued under the exact same idea. You can basically morph any social justice idea from Twitter Spaces and Instagram stories to serve your idea and I'm not sure people realize that yet, or if they are intentionally doing it themselves. For the record, I would also like to see a world where hatred was not incited. People uncomfortable with an organization still have the choice of disassociating from the organization, no matter how much energy they put into enrollment or money they put into an investment there. Thats what freedom of speech and association means even in the philosophical private sector fan-rendition of the first amendment.
- dqpb 5y ago> which Chinese student groups had said "incited racial hatred and ethnic tensions." Really? Was it the "Chinese Race" that force sterilized young Uyghur women? Was it the "Chinese Ethnicity" which tried to cover up the Covid outbreak? The irony of this line of propaganda is that they are weaponizing the empathy of the dwindling population of Americans who are most inclined to be allies of peace. That kind of clumsy manipulation is going to bite back hard. Unless of course the whole point is to further divide, polarize, and destabilize. In which case - well done.
- xg15 5y agoI mean, I can understand most of the posters, but why the coronavirus one?
- t0bia_s 5y agoI also created few propagandist poster focused on media manipulation and I can say those poster are inspiring and very well made. Good job, thanks for sharing.
- csense 5y agoWe need to recognize the price that will be paid by students and administrators of this university who have family members in China. The Chinese government's standard modus operandi in cases like this is to make them an offer they can't refuse: Commit suicide, come to China to be jailed, or your family members will suffer in your place [1]. China is an evil empire and standing up to them is important. Bravo for this university for making the right decision. I just hope the US media is willing to call China out, and US politicians are willing to inflict painful consequences on China, when those students' and administrators' families "disappear." Or better yet, US intelligence manages to successfully bug one of those family members before they get "disappeared", and get clear video evidence of exactly what happens during such "disappearances." (My personal guess is that it's a sick, sadistic slow murder with lots of screaming and blood, followed by secret burial in an unmarked shallow grave.) [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/07/china-christopher-wray-operation-fox-hunt https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/07/china-christ...