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Hmm, I don't think that's the middle though: Proponents of self-sustainment as the way forward advocate off-grid lifestyle that provides energy and large amoun

Hmm, I don't think that's the middle though: Proponents of self-sustainment as the way forward advocate off-grid lifestyle that provides energy and large amount of food/materials internally / within family or homestead. A house and a plot of land, and some fruit/veggies/animals, with solar or geothermal, etc. In my mind then, a 5,000 people town is as much on the other side of the spectrum from that, as a 5,000,000 people town. In fact, in North America, small and medium towns in my experience (Minnesota, Manitoba, Ontario) are quaint and lovely, but worst possible compromise - no self-sustaining benefits of independent homestead, but with limited to no public transit, no high density dwelling, spread out infrastructure. You cannot live without a car in a small north american town - modern or old. They are beautiful lovely historic worst parts of sub-urban without the urban/core. [edit/disclosure: In fact, I live in one now (moved there for love:) and it is fascinating how much we get none of the benefits of either farm or downtown living. City Council repeatedly rejects calls for public transit, on probably awful unspoken grounds of not wanting "undesirable elements". We do have a cute main street and the 5% of population who lives on or around it can probably walk there. Literally the rest of 95% of population MUST own several cars to live. I'm always amused when healthy 25 year old SF-downtown dwellers promote bikes as solution to everything - that's just not going to be relevant to the aging population of Canadian or USA snowbelt sub-urbia:]

ericmay 5y ago
> Proponents of self-sustainment as the way forward advocate off-grid lifestyle that provides energy and large amount of food/materials internally / within family or homestead. A house and a plot of land, and some fruit/veggies/animals, with solar or geothermal, etc. Yes but this isn't possible with current population levels so it's a non-started from a practical standpoint. It also has downsides as you can't build things like hospitals or universities, particle colliders, or hardware/electronics to do self-sustainment. All and I mean all who advocate for this specific way of life only do so and are able to do so because it's subsidized by technological innovation throughout the rest of the world. To be clear I support people doing this. I think it’s really cool and good for society, but it’s important to be aware of how you’re actually able to do it. > In my mind then, a 5,000 people town is as much on the other side of the spectrum from that, as a 5,000,000 people town. I think this would be a great opportunity to recalibrate, because those are not even remotely the same thing in any way, shape, or form. Even ancient peoples who were undoubtedly more self-sustaining than anyone who exists today had settlements larger than 5,000 people. > In fact, in North America, small and medium towns in my experience (Minnesota, Manitoba, Ontario) are quaint and lovely, but worst possible compromise - no self-sustaining benefits of independent homestead, but with limited to no public transit, no high density dwelling, spread out infrastructure. You cannot live without a car in a small north american town - modern or old. They are beautiful lovely historic worst parts of sub-urban without the urban/core. I agree that this is the experience but you need to look to Europe for better examples. I'm also advocating for things like train service, majority of your experience being walking or biking (i.e. a 15-minute town), and very reduced car ownership. Having a car isn't that bad, it's having 2 or 4 cars and using them for everything under the sun. Europeans have cars, and they also have infrastructure, and farms, and self-sustaining areas. It's a great blueprint to improve upon. I'm not advocating for what is, but what could be.

ericmay 5y ago

> Proponents of self-sustainment as the way forward advocate off-grid lifestyle that provides energy and large amount of food/materials internally / within family or homestead. A house and a plot of land, and some fruit/veggies/animals, with solar or geothermal, etc. Yes but this isn't possible with current population levels so it's a non-started from a practical standpoint. It also has downsides as you can't build things like hospitals or universities, particle colliders, or hardware/electronics to do self-sustainment. All and I mean all who advocate for this specific way of life only do so and are able to do so because it's subsidized by technological innovation throughout the rest of the world. To be clear I support people doing this. I think it’s really cool and good for society, but it’s important to be aware of how you’re actually able to do it. > In my mind then, a 5,000 people town is as much on the other side of the spectrum from that, as a 5,000,000 people town. I think this would be a great opportunity to recalibrate, because those are not even remotely the same thing in any way, shape, or form. Even ancient peoples who were undoubtedly more self-sustaining than anyone who exists today had settlements larger than 5,000 people. > In fact, in North America, small and medium towns in my experience (Minnesota, Manitoba, Ontario) are quaint and lovely, but worst possible compromise - no self-sustaining benefits of independent homestead, but with limited to no public transit, no high density dwelling, spread out infrastructure. You cannot live without a car in a small north american town - modern or old. They are beautiful lovely historic worst parts of sub-urban without the urban/core. I agree that this is the experience but you need to look to Europe for better examples. I'm also advocating for things like train service, majority of your experience being walking or biking (i.e. a 15-minute town), and very reduced car ownership. Having a car isn't that bad, it's having 2 or 4 cars and using them for everything under the sun. Europeans have cars, and they also have infrastructure, and farms, and self-sustaining areas. It's a great blueprint to improve upon. I'm not advocating for what is, but what could be.