3 ms·

You tax a couple dozen ultra rich billionaires and a couple dozen ultra profitable companies. There's plenty of money. We don't need to print more. And each doe

by dymk 5y ago

You tax a couple dozen ultra rich billionaires and a couple dozen ultra profitable companies. There's plenty of money. We don't need to print more. And each doesn't need the spare $20B anyways.

tomrod 5y ago
I'm not sure this is true. Asset valuation is a bit tricky when you're an outlier. It's not terribly liquid.
- dymk 5y ago
  Lucky, tricky problems get solved when there's a trillion dollars on the line. For the most part, this idea that taxing the rich is in-theory difficult is just an illusion created by them, to dissuade people from even thinking about it. And yet I have 22% of my equity sold and sent straight to the IRS every year. This is behind the scenes a complex multi-step process, and yet it happens like clockwork, easy as pie.
  - optimiz3 5y ago
    > And yet I have 37% of my equity sold and sent straight to the IRS You need a better accountant / portfolio manager.
    - dymk 5y ago
      Updated ;) ETR != highest bracket, ofc
optimiz3 5y ago
> You tax a couple dozen ultra rich billionaires and a couple dozen ultra profitable companies. There's plenty of money. The federal deficit is 2.8T for 1 year. If we confiscated the 100% assets of the top 10 US billionaires we don't even get close to half of 1 year of federal spending. It's not plausible that a massive increase in taxes would pay for UBI. https://www.usdebtclock.org/ https://www.usdebtclock.org/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/201426/the-richest-people-in-america/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/201426/the-richest-peopl... As is, people not participating in the workforce right now is implicated in large parts of the various shortages. It's not clear how UBI improves things.
- dymk 5y ago
  The public holds over $22 trillion of the national debt. Bonds. Somehow we still get away with funding other welfare programs, even though we have a rising debt ceiling. Anyways, this is why you increase taxes on the ultra-wealthy, in order to pay for UBI. It doesn't mean more debt.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    The "ultra-wealthy" are not where the money is. Besides, what many leftists actually end up saying by focusing on those is that Gates and Buffett should not be allowed to put their money towards eradicating malaria, giving every African safe drinking water, and countless such high-value causes. Instead that hard-won wealth should be taxed from them and frittered away to fund a one-time super binge of mindless political activism and foolish "green" boondoggles in the highly developed West. Needless to say, I think this is a very bad idea. You want to tax Larry Ellison's yacht and other ludicrous spending, fine by me. But that's the ultra-wealthy's consumption - it's not even their income, much less their wealth. If you can't tell the difference, you're not getting the point of this debate.
    - cherrycherry98 5y ago
      I agree with you, taxation does nothing but enable the government to work on projects it deems important in the name of helping the public. It's inefficient and obviously open to corruption. If we really think that it is unjust for money to be concentrated in the hands of the rich and should go to the public instead of their heirs or private interests, there should be an option of zeroing out one's bank account. That is, literally destroying money (not to be confused with wealth). This should have roughly the same effect as dividing up one's fortune and distributing it evenly to all holders of that currency.
      - Wiseacre 5y ago
        You've always been able to burn all your cash.
asow92 5y ago
Even if we zero out every US billionaire (imagine that for a second; take 100% of their wealth and leave them with exactly $0) it would not even cover 1/5 of the US national debt. We can't see taking their money as a viable long term solution to UBI. Our debt is out of control and our day of reckoning will come eventually. Nothing is free; markets will correct for UBI and people will become just as poor as they were over time. Existing UBI studies cannot take into account for the _universal_ aspect of UBI because they are controlled studies — there will be unintended consequences. https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/UnintendedConsequences.html https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/UnintendedConsequences.h... https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/nov/02/viral-image/confiscating-us-billionaires-wealth-would-run-us-g/#:~:text=Estimates%20put%20the%20total%20wealth,30 https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/nov/02/viral-imag.... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/01/us/politics/national-debt-30-trillion.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/01/us/politics/national-debt...
- optimiz3 5y ago
  The COVID stimulus programs were a sort of UBI program. We're now starting to see mass inflation in part due to lower labor participation and excess liquidity. Obviously only part of the picture as quantitative easing and low rates are also driving excess liquidity, and omicron is also driving lower short-term labor participation.
  - asow92 5y ago
    Emphasis on the sort of part; universal means universal—everyone gets it. It's not Universal Guaranteed Income, it's Universal Basic Income. My wife and I worked the whole time and we made too much to ever get any stimulus. So we worked while we saw many people our age goofing off and seeing just how long they could ride the unemployment wave—yes, they really were proud of this. Meanwhile another half our peers want their college debt forgiven because they can't cut it in the real world with their liberal arts degree. Mark my words: if they ever do get around to slashing college debt, those who did what they were supposed to will be left there with their bill in hand while everyone else who made every ill-advised decision gets off for free.
Jeff_Brown 5y ago
False. You'd need 4 trillion dollars a year to give 12k to everyone in the US. That would mean doubling US federal expenditures. And some people would stop working, hence stop paying income tax. Some businesses would leave the country. I do expect someday it will be feasible though. Maybe in my lifetime.
- dymk 5y ago
  Maybe we lower the US military spending budget to "only" be 10% higher than the next highest spender. That should free up some cash. Gotta start somewhere :)
  - cuteboy19 5y ago
    Emphasis on the 'some' in some cash. As bloated as the US military is, it 'only' has a budget of $700B and a good portion of this is veterns welfare programs. This should put into perspective how ludicrously expensive UBI truly is

by dymk 5y ago

You tax a couple dozen ultra rich billionaires and a couple dozen ultra profitable companies. There's plenty of money. We don't need to print more. And each doesn't need the spare $20B anyways.

tomrod 5y ago

I'm not sure this is true. Asset valuation is a bit tricky when you're an outlier. It's not terribly liquid.

dymk 5y ago
Lucky, tricky problems get solved when there's a trillion dollars on the line. For the most part, this idea that taxing the rich is in-theory difficult is just an illusion created by them, to dissuade people from even thinking about it. And yet I have 22% of my equity sold and sent straight to the IRS every year. This is behind the scenes a complex multi-step process, and yet it happens like clockwork, easy as pie.
- optimiz3 5y ago
  > And yet I have 37% of my equity sold and sent straight to the IRS You need a better accountant / portfolio manager.
  - dymk 5y ago
    Updated ;) ETR != highest bracket, ofc

optimiz3 5y ago

> You tax a couple dozen ultra rich billionaires and a couple dozen ultra profitable companies. There's plenty of money. The federal deficit is 2.8T for 1 year. If we confiscated the 100% assets of the top 10 US billionaires we don't even get close to half of 1 year of federal spending. It's not plausible that a massive increase in taxes would pay for UBI. https://www.usdebtclock.org/ https://www.usdebtclock.org/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/201426/the-richest-people-in-america/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/201426/the-richest-peopl... As is, people not participating in the workforce right now is implicated in large parts of the various shortages. It's not clear how UBI improves things.

dymk 5y ago
The public holds over $22 trillion of the national debt. Bonds. Somehow we still get away with funding other welfare programs, even though we have a rising debt ceiling. Anyways, this is why you increase taxes on the ultra-wealthy, in order to pay for UBI. It doesn't mean more debt.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  The "ultra-wealthy" are not where the money is. Besides, what many leftists actually end up saying by focusing on those is that Gates and Buffett should not be allowed to put their money towards eradicating malaria, giving every African safe drinking water, and countless such high-value causes. Instead that hard-won wealth should be taxed from them and frittered away to fund a one-time super binge of mindless political activism and foolish "green" boondoggles in the highly developed West. Needless to say, I think this is a very bad idea. You want to tax Larry Ellison's yacht and other ludicrous spending, fine by me. But that's the ultra-wealthy's consumption - it's not even their income, much less their wealth. If you can't tell the difference, you're not getting the point of this debate.
  - cherrycherry98 5y ago
    I agree with you, taxation does nothing but enable the government to work on projects it deems important in the name of helping the public. It's inefficient and obviously open to corruption. If we really think that it is unjust for money to be concentrated in the hands of the rich and should go to the public instead of their heirs or private interests, there should be an option of zeroing out one's bank account. That is, literally destroying money (not to be confused with wealth). This should have roughly the same effect as dividing up one's fortune and distributing it evenly to all holders of that currency.
    - Wiseacre 5y ago
      You've always been able to burn all your cash.

asow92 5y ago

Even if we zero out every US billionaire (imagine that for a second; take 100% of their wealth and leave them with exactly $0) it would not even cover 1/5 of the US national debt. We can't see taking their money as a viable long term solution to UBI. Our debt is out of control and our day of reckoning will come eventually. Nothing is free; markets will correct for UBI and people will become just as poor as they were over time. Existing UBI studies cannot take into account for the _universal_ aspect of UBI because they are controlled studies — there will be unintended consequences. https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/UnintendedConsequences.html https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/UnintendedConsequences.h... https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/nov/02/viral-image/confiscating-us-billionaires-wealth-would-run-us-g/#:~:text=Estimates%20put%20the%20total%20wealth,30 https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/nov/02/viral-imag.... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/01/us/politics/national-debt-30-trillion.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/01/us/politics/national-debt...

optimiz3 5y ago
The COVID stimulus programs were a sort of UBI program. We're now starting to see mass inflation in part due to lower labor participation and excess liquidity. Obviously only part of the picture as quantitative easing and low rates are also driving excess liquidity, and omicron is also driving lower short-term labor participation.
- asow92 5y ago
  Emphasis on the sort of part; universal means universal—everyone gets it. It's not Universal Guaranteed Income, it's Universal Basic Income. My wife and I worked the whole time and we made too much to ever get any stimulus. So we worked while we saw many people our age goofing off and seeing just how long they could ride the unemployment wave—yes, they really were proud of this. Meanwhile another half our peers want their college debt forgiven because they can't cut it in the real world with their liberal arts degree. Mark my words: if they ever do get around to slashing college debt, those who did what they were supposed to will be left there with their bill in hand while everyone else who made every ill-advised decision gets off for free.

Jeff_Brown 5y ago

False. You'd need 4 trillion dollars a year to give 12k to everyone in the US. That would mean doubling US federal expenditures. And some people would stop working, hence stop paying income tax. Some businesses would leave the country. I do expect someday it will be feasible though. Maybe in my lifetime.

dymk 5y ago
Maybe we lower the US military spending budget to "only" be 10% higher than the next highest spender. That should free up some cash. Gotta start somewhere :)
- cuteboy19 5y ago
  Emphasis on the 'some' in some cash. As bloated as the US military is, it 'only' has a budget of $700B and a good portion of this is veterns welfare programs. This should put into perspective how ludicrously expensive UBI truly is