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You could say literally the same thing about any political slogan. For example, please explain "government accountability" or "serve the people"? That literally

You could say literally the same thing about any political slogan. For example, please explain "government accountability" or "serve the people"? That literally could be anything. Another example, "Medicare for All", pretty straight forward, but what does it look like as a policy? https://www.propublica.org/article/medicare-for-all-is-not-medicare-and-not-really-for-all-so-what-does-it-actually-mean https://www.propublica.org/article/medicare-for-all-is-not-m... Or "Make American Great Again" or "Build Back Better". Any slogan can be questioned. IMO, "Defund the Police" is almost the most straightforward political slogan I can think of and if you Google it, near the top result is a website explaining exactly what it means. https://defundthepolice.org/ https://defundthepolice.org/ The problem with a lot of people who were questioning "Defund the Police" in my experience is that they would go to BLM protests but then be much more moderate and not actually interested in what the protests meant or what defunding the police actually means; the slogan wasn't unclear, it was wanting to look like you cared but not actually doing the work to convince yourself or learn more.

the_snooze 5y ago
>Make American Great Again I think this is a really good example of an effective slogan, both in Reagan's initial use and later Trump's. It has some really critical properties: it's easy to comprehend, while also nimble enough to fit anyone's notions, and you can't argue against it directly. If you have to direct people to "Google it," then your slogan is a non-starter. I'm not a marketing expert (hence the rather dry alternatives), but I am aware of how wildly effective conservative-leaning messaging is compared to the often off-putting (even if well-intentioned) liberal-messaging on the other side. So then, why not use the same tactics? Government accountability is a good thing, and you really can't argue against it. If it makes sense to demand a lot of accountability at a high standard from teachers (and teacher unions), then the very same demands should be put on police (and police unions). Use the same exact messaging.
- shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago
  My point about "Make America Great Again" is anyone can be like "I don't get it what does it mean though?" which happened a lot from liberals and left for this slogan specifically. Conservatives get the benefit of being easily aligned around their leaders and values, so sure "Make America Great Again" works really well in that context where everyone wants pretty much the same thing. "Defund the Police" had a specific meaning which was to actually defund the police but, as with any actual implementation, when you get to the specifics people have a lot of different views and opinions. I don't think you combat that by making a better slogan, I think you just deal with it. The handwringing over what "Defund the Police" means was a huge distraction IMO and mostly bad actors who disagreed with the premise fundamentally and weren't looking for real ways to implement policies. > If it makes sense to demand a lot of accountability at a high standard from teachers (and teacher unions), then the very same demands should be put on police (and police unions). Use the same exact messaging. Okay, what's the exact, unquestionable slogan you would use here? Good luck.
  - the_snooze 5y ago
    >My point about "Make America Great Again" is anyone can be like "I don't get it what does it mean though?" which happened a lot from liberals and left for this slogan specifically. Conservatives get the benefit of being easily aligned around their leaders and values, so sure "Make America Great Again" works really well in that context where everyone wants pretty much the same thing. I absolutely agree with you here, and this is the point I'm trying to emphasize. Slogans have to be aspirational and adaptable and unassailable. "MAGA" is all three. "Defund the police" is really only aspirational and sort-of-adaptable. Its weakness is that it's easy to oppose it and look like you have the moral high ground (i.e., being a crime-fighter). You can't attack "MAGA" directly without sounding like you hate America. That's the brilliance of it. >"Defund the Police" had a specific meaning which was to actually defund the police but, as with any actual implementation, when you get to the specifics people have a lot of different views and opinions. I don't think you combat that by making a better slogan, I think you just deal with it. The handwringing over what "Defund the Police" means was a huge distraction IMO and mostly bad actors who disagreed with the premise fundamentally and weren't looking for real ways to implement policies. This is where we disagree. The policy specifics don't matter. Not at the slogan/rallying level. "Defund the police" has a pretty clear policy roadmap, even if it could take on varying shades. "MAGA" is completely devoid of policy, and that's what makes it such a strong talking point. Anyone can attach whatever aspiration they want to it without getting mired up in boring details. This results in widespread acceptance. >Okay, what's the exact, unquestionable slogan you would use here? Good luck. I never claimed to have the correct answer here. All I'm doing is pointing out how horrifically bad "defund the police" is and offering field-tested examples of slogans that are so much better at inspiring action, for better or worse (e.g., MAGA). Something closer to a jazzed-up version of "government accountability" or "police competence" would have all the desirable properties of "MAGA" that I've described: aspirational and adaptable and unassailable. "Defund the police" ain't it.
    - shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago
      Given the long history of the US culture broadly being anti-left, what possible slogan could there be that's "aspirational and adaptable and unassailable". I think you put effort into a slogan but it's pretty much impossible for any leftist slogan to meet those criteria. And anyways, again, I highly disagree that any slogan is unassailable. A lot of people still attacked "MAGA" so where is the line that you measure "unassailablity"? I could say to someone against "Defund the Police" that you hate Black people but there just isn't widespread support for that opinion like there is with being anti american. "Defund the Police" is a compromise slogan, "Abolish the Police" is the more radical version and arguably even clearer and less assailable but again mainstream US culture just doesn't want to face that reality. Also, adaptable slogans are great for campaigns (where you probably don't want to assign policy specifics) and conservatives (who largely agree on everything already) but not for positions that are supposed to end up with policy changes. What adaptable slogan is there for leftist movement that's asking specifically to tackle the issue of police violence? The problem with adaptable slogans is they become compromised or co-opted. "Black Lives Matter" became a the conservative rally "All Lives Matter" and "Blue Lives Matter". Can this be avoided on the left by a more adaptable slogan? I doubt it. So, okay maybe there's some slightly better slogan than "Defund the Police" but at the end of the day it's not the slogan that's the issue, it's liberals that don't actually agree with the basic idea but want to pretend they're still pro-left or whatever. Edit: to complete the thought, all of this is to say, all the disagreement with the slogan is overall to a bad faith, pointless end. If the media and liberals and whoever are spending a bunch of time arguing about the slogan, it's time that could have been spent discussing and negotiating policy specifics. But liberals and mainstream media didn't want to do that. So we ended up with a lot of arguing about a slogan and not much actual policy and the police won.
BitwiseFool 5y ago
A far better slogan would have been "Demilitarize the Police". I do not know why so many people who want police reform want to stick to "Defund the Police" when it comes with so much baggage.
- the_snooze 5y ago
  That's a good one. Maybe even demanding "competent police" would be a good aggressive tack. If there's footage of police killing unarmed people in their homes or in broad daylight, then we should absolutely demand more competence and professionalism from them. That puts police unions in a tough spot of not being able to argue against that.
  - shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago
    But that's not what the movement is about. The "Defund the Police" and "Abolish the Police" slogans are based on even "better policing", "community policing", etc. still being incredibly harmful to communities. > If there's footage of police killing unarmed people in their homes or in broad daylight, then we should absolutely demand more competence and professionalism from them This happened so much. Did you see all the videos of police violence during BLM and before and after? I don't think the problem is the slogan.
- ameister14 5y ago
  Except that's not what the police abolitionist movement that came up with the slogan wanted. It was just adopted by a bunch of people that didn't actually agree with it, which is why it doesn't make sense.
rhino369 5y ago
All slogans are somewhat vague. But "defund the police" strongly implies something that the movement allegedly doesn't actually support. And it wasn't a misinterpretation because the movement literally tried to entirely defund several major police departments.
- shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago
  > strongly implies something that the movement allegedly doesn't actually support Who do you mean when you say "the movement"?
- MockObject 5y ago
  I think your last two sentences directly contradict.
  - rhino369 5y ago
    I should have said "no longer support" or "won't admit to supporting" in the first sentence and "initially" in the second.

the_snooze 5y ago

>Make American Great Again I think this is a really good example of an effective slogan, both in Reagan's initial use and later Trump's. It has some really critical properties: it's easy to comprehend, while also nimble enough to fit anyone's notions, and you can't argue against it directly. If you have to direct people to "Google it," then your slogan is a non-starter. I'm not a marketing expert (hence the rather dry alternatives), but I am aware of how wildly effective conservative-leaning messaging is compared to the often off-putting (even if well-intentioned) liberal-messaging on the other side. So then, why not use the same tactics? Government accountability is a good thing, and you really can't argue against it. If it makes sense to demand a lot of accountability at a high standard from teachers (and teacher unions), then the very same demands should be put on police (and police unions). Use the same exact messaging.

shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago
My point about "Make America Great Again" is anyone can be like "I don't get it what does it mean though?" which happened a lot from liberals and left for this slogan specifically. Conservatives get the benefit of being easily aligned around their leaders and values, so sure "Make America Great Again" works really well in that context where everyone wants pretty much the same thing. "Defund the Police" had a specific meaning which was to actually defund the police but, as with any actual implementation, when you get to the specifics people have a lot of different views and opinions. I don't think you combat that by making a better slogan, I think you just deal with it. The handwringing over what "Defund the Police" means was a huge distraction IMO and mostly bad actors who disagreed with the premise fundamentally and weren't looking for real ways to implement policies. > If it makes sense to demand a lot of accountability at a high standard from teachers (and teacher unions), then the very same demands should be put on police (and police unions). Use the same exact messaging. Okay, what's the exact, unquestionable slogan you would use here? Good luck.
- the_snooze 5y ago
  >My point about "Make America Great Again" is anyone can be like "I don't get it what does it mean though?" which happened a lot from liberals and left for this slogan specifically. Conservatives get the benefit of being easily aligned around their leaders and values, so sure "Make America Great Again" works really well in that context where everyone wants pretty much the same thing. I absolutely agree with you here, and this is the point I'm trying to emphasize. Slogans have to be aspirational and adaptable and unassailable. "MAGA" is all three. "Defund the police" is really only aspirational and sort-of-adaptable. Its weakness is that it's easy to oppose it and look like you have the moral high ground (i.e., being a crime-fighter). You can't attack "MAGA" directly without sounding like you hate America. That's the brilliance of it. >"Defund the Police" had a specific meaning which was to actually defund the police but, as with any actual implementation, when you get to the specifics people have a lot of different views and opinions. I don't think you combat that by making a better slogan, I think you just deal with it. The handwringing over what "Defund the Police" means was a huge distraction IMO and mostly bad actors who disagreed with the premise fundamentally and weren't looking for real ways to implement policies. This is where we disagree. The policy specifics don't matter. Not at the slogan/rallying level. "Defund the police" has a pretty clear policy roadmap, even if it could take on varying shades. "MAGA" is completely devoid of policy, and that's what makes it such a strong talking point. Anyone can attach whatever aspiration they want to it without getting mired up in boring details. This results in widespread acceptance. >Okay, what's the exact, unquestionable slogan you would use here? Good luck. I never claimed to have the correct answer here. All I'm doing is pointing out how horrifically bad "defund the police" is and offering field-tested examples of slogans that are so much better at inspiring action, for better or worse (e.g., MAGA). Something closer to a jazzed-up version of "government accountability" or "police competence" would have all the desirable properties of "MAGA" that I've described: aspirational and adaptable and unassailable. "Defund the police" ain't it.
  - shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago
    Given the long history of the US culture broadly being anti-left, what possible slogan could there be that's "aspirational and adaptable and unassailable". I think you put effort into a slogan but it's pretty much impossible for any leftist slogan to meet those criteria. And anyways, again, I highly disagree that any slogan is unassailable. A lot of people still attacked "MAGA" so where is the line that you measure "unassailablity"? I could say to someone against "Defund the Police" that you hate Black people but there just isn't widespread support for that opinion like there is with being anti american. "Defund the Police" is a compromise slogan, "Abolish the Police" is the more radical version and arguably even clearer and less assailable but again mainstream US culture just doesn't want to face that reality. Also, adaptable slogans are great for campaigns (where you probably don't want to assign policy specifics) and conservatives (who largely agree on everything already) but not for positions that are supposed to end up with policy changes. What adaptable slogan is there for leftist movement that's asking specifically to tackle the issue of police violence? The problem with adaptable slogans is they become compromised or co-opted. "Black Lives Matter" became a the conservative rally "All Lives Matter" and "Blue Lives Matter". Can this be avoided on the left by a more adaptable slogan? I doubt it. So, okay maybe there's some slightly better slogan than "Defund the Police" but at the end of the day it's not the slogan that's the issue, it's liberals that don't actually agree with the basic idea but want to pretend they're still pro-left or whatever. Edit: to complete the thought, all of this is to say, all the disagreement with the slogan is overall to a bad faith, pointless end. If the media and liberals and whoever are spending a bunch of time arguing about the slogan, it's time that could have been spent discussing and negotiating policy specifics. But liberals and mainstream media didn't want to do that. So we ended up with a lot of arguing about a slogan and not much actual policy and the police won.

BitwiseFool 5y ago

A far better slogan would have been "Demilitarize the Police". I do not know why so many people who want police reform want to stick to "Defund the Police" when it comes with so much baggage.

the_snooze 5y ago
That's a good one. Maybe even demanding "competent police" would be a good aggressive tack. If there's footage of police killing unarmed people in their homes or in broad daylight, then we should absolutely demand more competence and professionalism from them. That puts police unions in a tough spot of not being able to argue against that.
- shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago
  But that's not what the movement is about. The "Defund the Police" and "Abolish the Police" slogans are based on even "better policing", "community policing", etc. still being incredibly harmful to communities. > If there's footage of police killing unarmed people in their homes or in broad daylight, then we should absolutely demand more competence and professionalism from them This happened so much. Did you see all the videos of police violence during BLM and before and after? I don't think the problem is the slogan.
ameister14 5y ago
Except that's not what the police abolitionist movement that came up with the slogan wanted. It was just adopted by a bunch of people that didn't actually agree with it, which is why it doesn't make sense.

rhino369 5y ago

All slogans are somewhat vague. But "defund the police" strongly implies something that the movement allegedly doesn't actually support. And it wasn't a misinterpretation because the movement literally tried to entirely defund several major police departments.

shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago
> strongly implies something that the movement allegedly doesn't actually support Who do you mean when you say "the movement"?
MockObject 5y ago
I think your last two sentences directly contradict.
- rhino369 5y ago
  I should have said "no longer support" or "won't admit to supporting" in the first sentence and "initially" in the second.