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>Defund the Police That slogan was straight up political malpractice. If you have to explain your position, then you're already losing. Something like "govern

>Defund the Police That slogan was straight up political malpractice. If you have to explain your position, then you're already losing. Something like "government accountability" or "serve the people" probably could have gotten wider support than "defund the police."

deleted 5y ago
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s1artibartfast 5y ago
I think the article articulates the counterpoint. Most movements start with radicals. A milder slogan wouldn't have gotten traction with the radicals, who actually do want to abolish the police. If the radicals weren't protesting, the mainstream wouldn't have taken notice and come on board. This leads to a conflict of views within the protesters and ultimately the revision of the slogan definition
shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago
You could say literally the same thing about any political slogan. For example, please explain "government accountability" or "serve the people"? That literally could be anything. Another example, "Medicare for All", pretty straight forward, but what does it look like as a policy? https://www.propublica.org/article/medicare-for-all-is-not-medicare-and-not-really-for-all-so-what-does-it-actually-mean https://www.propublica.org/article/medicare-for-all-is-not-m... Or "Make American Great Again" or "Build Back Better". Any slogan can be questioned. IMO, "Defund the Police" is almost the most straightforward political slogan I can think of and if you Google it, near the top result is a website explaining exactly what it means. https://defundthepolice.org/ https://defundthepolice.org/ The problem with a lot of people who were questioning "Defund the Police" in my experience is that they would go to BLM protests but then be much more moderate and not actually interested in what the protests meant or what defunding the police actually means; the slogan wasn't unclear, it was wanting to look like you cared but not actually doing the work to convince yourself or learn more.
- the_snooze 5y ago
  >Make American Great Again I think this is a really good example of an effective slogan, both in Reagan's initial use and later Trump's. It has some really critical properties: it's easy to comprehend, while also nimble enough to fit anyone's notions, and you can't argue against it directly. If you have to direct people to "Google it," then your slogan is a non-starter. I'm not a marketing expert (hence the rather dry alternatives), but I am aware of how wildly effective conservative-leaning messaging is compared to the often off-putting (even if well-intentioned) liberal-messaging on the other side. So then, why not use the same tactics? Government accountability is a good thing, and you really can't argue against it. If it makes sense to demand a lot of accountability at a high standard from teachers (and teacher unions), then the very same demands should be put on police (and police unions). Use the same exact messaging.
  - shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago
    My point about "Make America Great Again" is anyone can be like "I don't get it what does it mean though?" which happened a lot from liberals and left for this slogan specifically. Conservatives get the benefit of being easily aligned around their leaders and values, so sure "Make America Great Again" works really well in that context where everyone wants pretty much the same thing. "Defund the Police" had a specific meaning which was to actually defund the police but, as with any actual implementation, when you get to the specifics people have a lot of different views and opinions. I don't think you combat that by making a better slogan, I think you just deal with it. The handwringing over what "Defund the Police" means was a huge distraction IMO and mostly bad actors who disagreed with the premise fundamentally and weren't looking for real ways to implement policies. > If it makes sense to demand a lot of accountability at a high standard from teachers (and teacher unions), then the very same demands should be put on police (and police unions). Use the same exact messaging. Okay, what's the exact, unquestionable slogan you would use here? Good luck.
    - the_snooze 5y ago
      >My point about "Make America Great Again" is anyone can be like "I don't get it what does it mean though?" which happened a lot from liberals and left for this slogan specifically. Conservatives get the benefit of being easily aligned around their leaders and values, so sure "Make America Great Again" works really well in that context where everyone wants pretty much the same thing. I absolutely agree with you here, and this is the point I'm trying to emphasize. Slogans have to be aspirational and adaptable and unassailable. "MAGA" is all three. "Defund the police" is really only aspirational and sort-of-adaptable. Its weakness is that it's easy to oppose it and look like you have the moral high ground (i.e., being a crime-fighter). You can't attack "MAGA" directly without sounding like you hate America. That's the brilliance of it. >"Defund the Police" had a specific meaning which was to actually defund the police but, as with any actual implementation, when you get to the specifics people have a lot of different views and opinions. I don't think you combat that by making a better slogan, I think you just deal with it. The handwringing over what "Defund the Police" means was a huge distraction IMO and mostly bad actors who disagreed with the premise fundamentally and weren't looking for real ways to implement policies. This is where we disagree. The policy specifics don't matter. Not at the slogan/rallying level. "Defund the police" has a pretty clear policy roadmap, even if it could take on varying shades. "MAGA" is completely devoid of policy, and that's what makes it such a strong talking point. Anyone can attach whatever aspiration they want to it without getting mired up in boring details. This results in widespread acceptance. >Okay, what's the exact, unquestionable slogan you would use here? Good luck. I never claimed to have the correct answer here. All I'm doing is pointing out how horrifically bad "defund the police" is and offering field-tested examples of slogans that are so much better at inspiring action, for better or worse (e.g., MAGA). Something closer to a jazzed-up version of "government accountability" or "police competence" would have all the desirable properties of "MAGA" that I've described: aspirational and adaptable and unassailable. "Defund the police" ain't it.
jcims 5y ago
These terrible slogans are the product of social media. A good slogan is only going to get juice from one side. A slogan that is supremely dunkable by one side yet scratches the itch on the other is going to surface like curds in spoiled milk.
- shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago
  What slogan have you heard is "A slogan that is supremely dunkable by one side yet scratches the itch on the other is going to surface like curds in spoiled milk". No slogan is going to be 100% perfect because it's compressing an enormous amount of political opinion and legal implementation into a few words. IMO "Defund the Police" worked because it got a lot of people talking. The detractors were bad actors and not actually interested in implementation.
hannasanarion 5y ago
Only because opponents of it deliberately misinterpreted it. Defund the police means defunding the police. Over half of all city taxes go to funding the police forces, who do little to no good for the community with the money they're given. Buying more tanks and assault weapons and fancy cars and employing people who live in big macmansions in the suburbs isn't helping us. Concervatives act like the word "defund" means the same as "abolish" when talking about the police, but then are happy to talk about defunding education, or defunding planned parenthood, or defunding medicare, defunding social security, defunding sanctuary cities, etc fully expecting their base to understand that they don't mean "abolish".
- ameister14 5y ago
  Conservatives do mean abolish for those things, though. They want to abolish sanctuary cities, abolish planned parenthood, abolish medicare, abolish social security and abolish state-run education standards. Moderates don't want to abolish most of those things, but hardcore conservatives completely do.
deleted 5y ago
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mrsuprawsm 5y ago
Well, not really. While it isn't necessarily a mainstream view, many people do believe that the police in the United States function an unaccountable armed militia/gang, killing at will, and paid for by the public. Hence, the view that the public should defund the police. Another facet of the same view is that the police are assumed to be inherently so far gone and corrupt that reform is not possible, and to assume that it is is futile.
kbelder 5y ago
It's crazy. "Defund the police!" "Do you mean 'defund the police'?" "Of course not!"

deleted 5y ago

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s1artibartfast 5y ago

I think the article articulates the counterpoint. Most movements start with radicals. A milder slogan wouldn't have gotten traction with the radicals, who actually do want to abolish the police. If the radicals weren't protesting, the mainstream wouldn't have taken notice and come on board. This leads to a conflict of views within the protesters and ultimately the revision of the slogan definition

shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago

You could say literally the same thing about any political slogan. For example, please explain "government accountability" or "serve the people"? That literally could be anything. Another example, "Medicare for All", pretty straight forward, but what does it look like as a policy? https://www.propublica.org/article/medicare-for-all-is-not-medicare-and-not-really-for-all-so-what-does-it-actually-mean https://www.propublica.org/article/medicare-for-all-is-not-m... Or "Make American Great Again" or "Build Back Better". Any slogan can be questioned. IMO, "Defund the Police" is almost the most straightforward political slogan I can think of and if you Google it, near the top result is a website explaining exactly what it means. https://defundthepolice.org/ https://defundthepolice.org/ The problem with a lot of people who were questioning "Defund the Police" in my experience is that they would go to BLM protests but then be much more moderate and not actually interested in what the protests meant or what defunding the police actually means; the slogan wasn't unclear, it was wanting to look like you cared but not actually doing the work to convince yourself or learn more.

the_snooze 5y ago
>Make American Great Again I think this is a really good example of an effective slogan, both in Reagan's initial use and later Trump's. It has some really critical properties: it's easy to comprehend, while also nimble enough to fit anyone's notions, and you can't argue against it directly. If you have to direct people to "Google it," then your slogan is a non-starter. I'm not a marketing expert (hence the rather dry alternatives), but I am aware of how wildly effective conservative-leaning messaging is compared to the often off-putting (even if well-intentioned) liberal-messaging on the other side. So then, why not use the same tactics? Government accountability is a good thing, and you really can't argue against it. If it makes sense to demand a lot of accountability at a high standard from teachers (and teacher unions), then the very same demands should be put on police (and police unions). Use the same exact messaging.
- shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago
  My point about "Make America Great Again" is anyone can be like "I don't get it what does it mean though?" which happened a lot from liberals and left for this slogan specifically. Conservatives get the benefit of being easily aligned around their leaders and values, so sure "Make America Great Again" works really well in that context where everyone wants pretty much the same thing. "Defund the Police" had a specific meaning which was to actually defund the police but, as with any actual implementation, when you get to the specifics people have a lot of different views and opinions. I don't think you combat that by making a better slogan, I think you just deal with it. The handwringing over what "Defund the Police" means was a huge distraction IMO and mostly bad actors who disagreed with the premise fundamentally and weren't looking for real ways to implement policies. > If it makes sense to demand a lot of accountability at a high standard from teachers (and teacher unions), then the very same demands should be put on police (and police unions). Use the same exact messaging. Okay, what's the exact, unquestionable slogan you would use here? Good luck.
  - the_snooze 5y ago
    >My point about "Make America Great Again" is anyone can be like "I don't get it what does it mean though?" which happened a lot from liberals and left for this slogan specifically. Conservatives get the benefit of being easily aligned around their leaders and values, so sure "Make America Great Again" works really well in that context where everyone wants pretty much the same thing. I absolutely agree with you here, and this is the point I'm trying to emphasize. Slogans have to be aspirational and adaptable and unassailable. "MAGA" is all three. "Defund the police" is really only aspirational and sort-of-adaptable. Its weakness is that it's easy to oppose it and look like you have the moral high ground (i.e., being a crime-fighter). You can't attack "MAGA" directly without sounding like you hate America. That's the brilliance of it. >"Defund the Police" had a specific meaning which was to actually defund the police but, as with any actual implementation, when you get to the specifics people have a lot of different views and opinions. I don't think you combat that by making a better slogan, I think you just deal with it. The handwringing over what "Defund the Police" means was a huge distraction IMO and mostly bad actors who disagreed with the premise fundamentally and weren't looking for real ways to implement policies. This is where we disagree. The policy specifics don't matter. Not at the slogan/rallying level. "Defund the police" has a pretty clear policy roadmap, even if it could take on varying shades. "MAGA" is completely devoid of policy, and that's what makes it such a strong talking point. Anyone can attach whatever aspiration they want to it without getting mired up in boring details. This results in widespread acceptance. >Okay, what's the exact, unquestionable slogan you would use here? Good luck. I never claimed to have the correct answer here. All I'm doing is pointing out how horrifically bad "defund the police" is and offering field-tested examples of slogans that are so much better at inspiring action, for better or worse (e.g., MAGA). Something closer to a jazzed-up version of "government accountability" or "police competence" would have all the desirable properties of "MAGA" that I've described: aspirational and adaptable and unassailable. "Defund the police" ain't it.

jcims 5y ago

These terrible slogans are the product of social media. A good slogan is only going to get juice from one side. A slogan that is supremely dunkable by one side yet scratches the itch on the other is going to surface like curds in spoiled milk.

shakes_mcjunkie 5y ago
What slogan have you heard is "A slogan that is supremely dunkable by one side yet scratches the itch on the other is going to surface like curds in spoiled milk". No slogan is going to be 100% perfect because it's compressing an enormous amount of political opinion and legal implementation into a few words. IMO "Defund the Police" worked because it got a lot of people talking. The detractors were bad actors and not actually interested in implementation.

hannasanarion 5y ago

Only because opponents of it deliberately misinterpreted it. Defund the police means defunding the police. Over half of all city taxes go to funding the police forces, who do little to no good for the community with the money they're given. Buying more tanks and assault weapons and fancy cars and employing people who live in big macmansions in the suburbs isn't helping us. Concervatives act like the word "defund" means the same as "abolish" when talking about the police, but then are happy to talk about defunding education, or defunding planned parenthood, or defunding medicare, defunding social security, defunding sanctuary cities, etc fully expecting their base to understand that they don't mean "abolish".

ameister14 5y ago
Conservatives do mean abolish for those things, though. They want to abolish sanctuary cities, abolish planned parenthood, abolish medicare, abolish social security and abolish state-run education standards. Moderates don't want to abolish most of those things, but hardcore conservatives completely do.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mrsuprawsm 5y ago

Well, not really. While it isn't necessarily a mainstream view, many people do believe that the police in the United States function an unaccountable armed militia/gang, killing at will, and paid for by the public. Hence, the view that the public should defund the police. Another facet of the same view is that the police are assumed to be inherently so far gone and corrupt that reform is not possible, and to assume that it is is futile.

kbelder 5y ago

It's crazy. "Defund the police!" "Do you mean 'defund the police'?" "Of course not!"