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Really? Would that also apply to men pretending to like Jane Austen, when really they don't? Or how about women pretending they enjoy going to rodeos when rea

Really? Would that also apply to men pretending to like Jane Austen, when really they don't? Or how about women pretending they enjoy going to rodeos when really they'd prefer going to the ballet? Or how about people pretending they think Buddhist philosophy is really, really deep, just to get in bed with someone? You're rather minimizing actual rape, here.

drcongo 5y ago
Do you think the women involved are giving informed consent then? Edit: Oh hang on, the actual women involved agree with me https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/woman-deceived-by-spy-cop-sees-relationship-as-rape-inquiry-hears/ar-BB1gzHwB https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/woman-deceived-by-spy-...
- radford-neal 5y ago
  There's no way that "informed" consent can be the legal standard here. Just think about the quagmire that would result from trying that. Not everything that is immoral should be illegal.
  - drcongo 5y ago
    I'm sure you know more about it than the women who were tricked into a sexual relationship. That's essentially how the views of women work on HN comments.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - radford-neal 5y ago
      You do realize, don't you, that if this qualifies as "rape", then huge numbers of men could claim to have been raped by women?
      - drcongo 5y ago
        I realise that we must have been raised very differently indeed. Perhaps you could volunteer to mansplain it to the spy cops inquiry?
        decremental 5y ago
        When your cringe takes sound like parody it's time to take a step back and figure who scrambled your brain like that.
  - Arainach 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception
  - balr0g 5y ago
    - radford-neal 5y ago
      Somebody has to argue against extending the brute force of the law to encompass everything that anyone (well, anyone with political power) thinks is wrong. That's known as "totalitarianism". In pluralistic societies, people accept that many things they regard as immoral should be addressed by persuasion and other non-legalistic measures, rather than by throwing people in prison.
rkk3 5y ago
Pretending to like? It's not like these were shallow conversations at a party... He lived with them and dated them for years while acting as an agent of the state. That is pretty unfathomable violation...
- radford-neal 5y ago
  I'd agree that the state should not be infiltrating non-violent activist groups. But the fact that he was an agent of the state doesn't seem to be the focus here. "He wasn't the man I thought he was" is the sort of thing that could be said after practically every breakup of a relationship. Some times more than others, but trying to put some sort of line past which it is rape is not feasible - not, that is, if you are in favour of the rule of law, rather than people being sent to prison based on personal moral judgements of juries or judges about exactly how disgusted they are about someone's behaviour.
  - rkk3 5y ago
    > if you are in favour of the rule of law, rather than people being sent to prison based on personal moral judgements of juries They clearly violated their civil rights repeatedly over a period of years. They were already found liable for damages and paid out millions of dollars. Illicit activities & sex happen in undercover work... It's much more disturbing that the organizations sanctioned running operations that included having a 3 year plus romantic relationships, fathering children and proposing marriage... with non-violent activists... rape is not the right charge and shouldn't be shoehorned but that is such a gross violation and misuse of powers that should face criminal punishment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_undercover_policing_relationships_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_undercover_policing_relatio...
  - drcongo 5y ago
    "He wasn't the man I thought he was" is a misjudgement by party A and doesn't seem at all equivalent to party B actively deceiving someone by pretending to be an entirely different person with a different name, back story, interests, profession and so on, and then having sex with them. It makes me feel queasy that anyone would think they're even in the same ballpark.

drcongo 5y ago

Do you think the women involved are giving informed consent then? Edit: Oh hang on, the actual women involved agree with me https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/woman-deceived-by-spy-cop-sees-relationship-as-rape-inquiry-hears/ar-BB1gzHwB https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/woman-deceived-by-spy-...

radford-neal 5y ago
There's no way that "informed" consent can be the legal standard here. Just think about the quagmire that would result from trying that. Not everything that is immoral should be illegal.
- drcongo 5y ago
  I'm sure you know more about it than the women who were tricked into a sexual relationship. That's essentially how the views of women work on HN comments.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - radford-neal 5y ago
    You do realize, don't you, that if this qualifies as "rape", then huge numbers of men could claim to have been raped by women?
    - drcongo 5y ago
      I realise that we must have been raised very differently indeed. Perhaps you could volunteer to mansplain it to the spy cops inquiry?
      - decremental 5y ago
        When your cringe takes sound like parody it's time to take a step back and figure who scrambled your brain like that.
- Arainach 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception
- balr0g 5y ago
  - radford-neal 5y ago
    Somebody has to argue against extending the brute force of the law to encompass everything that anyone (well, anyone with political power) thinks is wrong. That's known as "totalitarianism". In pluralistic societies, people accept that many things they regard as immoral should be addressed by persuasion and other non-legalistic measures, rather than by throwing people in prison.

rkk3 5y ago

Pretending to like? It's not like these were shallow conversations at a party... He lived with them and dated them for years while acting as an agent of the state. That is pretty unfathomable violation...

radford-neal 5y ago
I'd agree that the state should not be infiltrating non-violent activist groups. But the fact that he was an agent of the state doesn't seem to be the focus here. "He wasn't the man I thought he was" is the sort of thing that could be said after practically every breakup of a relationship. Some times more than others, but trying to put some sort of line past which it is rape is not feasible - not, that is, if you are in favour of the rule of law, rather than people being sent to prison based on personal moral judgements of juries or judges about exactly how disgusted they are about someone's behaviour.
- rkk3 5y ago
  > if you are in favour of the rule of law, rather than people being sent to prison based on personal moral judgements of juries They clearly violated their civil rights repeatedly over a period of years. They were already found liable for damages and paid out millions of dollars. Illicit activities & sex happen in undercover work... It's much more disturbing that the organizations sanctioned running operations that included having a 3 year plus romantic relationships, fathering children and proposing marriage... with non-violent activists... rape is not the right charge and shouldn't be shoehorned but that is such a gross violation and misuse of powers that should face criminal punishment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_undercover_policing_relationships_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_undercover_policing_relatio...
- drcongo 5y ago
  "He wasn't the man I thought he was" is a misjudgement by party A and doesn't seem at all equivalent to party B actively deceiving someone by pretending to be an entirely different person with a different name, back story, interests, profession and so on, and then having sex with them. It makes me feel queasy that anyone would think they're even in the same ballpark.