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> The people pushing these regulations know that they would go nowhere if they tried to attack sales commissions directly and now the stupidity is bearing fruit

> The people pushing these regulations know that they would go nowhere if they tried to attack sales commissions directly and now the stupidity is bearing fruit. That’s a very strong statement to lack any citation. The intent of the regulators was clear. If a Apple is going to be petulant, the regulators can just come back and tell Apple to lower their commission across the board, which will inevitably hurt Apple more than if Apple had been reasonable about this. I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion at all that the regulators are just going to give up and go home, crying about how Apple so cleverly outsmarted them. > I'm absolutely in favor of regulations that make it so platforms can't skim percentage revenue off the top but any regulation that does that will attract the ire of literally every business that sells things. When it comes to other businesses, consumers have choice. If one company charges too much of a premium, consumers can go elsewhere. If I go elsewhere from Apple, I lose access to all of my purchased items. If Apple would refund me every dollar I paid, then maybe that would be viable, but Apple wants to have their cake and eat it too. Imagine if switching from Walmart to Safeway required you to give up every item you had ever purchased from Walmart. This is why Apple is not the same as most businesses charging a commission.

Spivak 5y ago
> the regulators can just come back and tell Apple to lower their commission across the board Unless you somehow craft a "fuck you Apple in particular" law which in basically all courts wouldn't fly, the regulation would be an immediate massive change to how all platforms do business. You would in one stroke wipe out the business models of basically all ecommerce platforms. Re: your edit > If one company charges too much of a premium, consumers can go elsewhere. Except they can't though, that's the entire point. You're paying the commission to reach specifically the people on that particular platform. It's inherently non-fungible. You can sell art on lots of online stores, but if you want to reach Etsy customers you gotta pay up. If you want to sell software there's plenty of ways to do it from sharecropping on existing platforms of selling you own appliance but if you want to reach iOS users you gotta pay up.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- coder543 5y ago
  I’m talking about consumer choice. As a consumer, I can stop buying artwork from Etsy if their fees make the artwork more expensive than I’m willing to pay, and I can buy that same artwork from the same artist through other stores, if the artist agrees. But I can keep all the artwork I bought before. I don’t have to give it up to switch platforms. With Apple and the App Store, I do have to give up everything to switch to Android, which is completely a different proposition to switching away from Etsy. I’m locked into Apple’s platform, and Apple is abusing this to make prices exorbitantly high for me, the consumer. If we want to talk about the developer perspective, then you’re making an even stronger argument that Apple has abused monopoly privilege and needs to be regulated as such. These iOS consumers aren’t reachable through other markets, only Apple’s. This is not the case for Etsy. In both cases, the ability to choose is greatly reduced compared to other markets. The switching cost is high and requires a big sacrifice from the consumer, but then both Apple and Google have either directly or indirectly conspired to keep App Store prices at 30%, so switching between the platforms doesn’t even provide a real choice there at all.
Grustaf 5y ago
> When it comes to other businesses, consumers have choice. If one company charges too much of a premium, consumers can go elsewhere. If I go elsewhere from Apple, I lose access to all of my purchased items. Well Apple has always charged 30%, so it would be strange if you suddenly wanted to change platforms now because of that. It's reasonable to ask you to do your research before buying it.
- coder543 5y ago
  Why would it be strange to want the freedom to choose again when Apple is expanding the set of things that are covered by a 30% commission?[0] Are you suggesting I should have illegally acquired information about Apple’s future business plans so that I could make informed choices as a consumer? I certainly never agreed to their expansion of the commission, but what power does a consumer have over that now? That’s what monopoly power feels like, even if it may not meet the legal definition of “monopoly” that was set many decades ago before a smartphone was even imaginable. Apple seems intent to expand their 30% commission to cover all aspects of daily life nowadays. I certainly didn’t know this years ago, and years ago when many consumers bought into iOS, the 30% commission was really just a commission on Angry Birds and similarly casual apps. It wasn’t impacting more serious parts of life, but now the smartphone is the place where the average person does some of the most important transactions in life. It’s a completely different situation from when the App Store first launched, and it should be treated as such. Do you recognize the validity of any of that? [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/28/technology/apple-app-store-airbnb-classpass.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/28/technology/apple-app-stor...
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    The companies expanded the acope of their activities, from physical to virtual. Apple’s policies remained the same. As to covering all the important things in life, it’s only an issue for things that are 1. Not physical, or “content”, and 2. Not available through the browser. Can’t think of anything important in life that you HAVE to pay the 30% on, but I’m sure there’s something.
    - 5y ago

Spivak 5y ago

> the regulators can just come back and tell Apple to lower their commission across the board Unless you somehow craft a "fuck you Apple in particular" law which in basically all courts wouldn't fly, the regulation would be an immediate massive change to how all platforms do business. You would in one stroke wipe out the business models of basically all ecommerce platforms. Re: your edit > If one company charges too much of a premium, consumers can go elsewhere. Except they can't though, that's the entire point. You're paying the commission to reach specifically the people on that particular platform. It's inherently non-fungible. You can sell art on lots of online stores, but if you want to reach Etsy customers you gotta pay up. If you want to sell software there's plenty of ways to do it from sharecropping on existing platforms of selling you own appliance but if you want to reach iOS users you gotta pay up.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
coder543 5y ago
I’m talking about consumer choice. As a consumer, I can stop buying artwork from Etsy if their fees make the artwork more expensive than I’m willing to pay, and I can buy that same artwork from the same artist through other stores, if the artist agrees. But I can keep all the artwork I bought before. I don’t have to give it up to switch platforms. With Apple and the App Store, I do have to give up everything to switch to Android, which is completely a different proposition to switching away from Etsy. I’m locked into Apple’s platform, and Apple is abusing this to make prices exorbitantly high for me, the consumer. If we want to talk about the developer perspective, then you’re making an even stronger argument that Apple has abused monopoly privilege and needs to be regulated as such. These iOS consumers aren’t reachable through other markets, only Apple’s. This is not the case for Etsy. In both cases, the ability to choose is greatly reduced compared to other markets. The switching cost is high and requires a big sacrifice from the consumer, but then both Apple and Google have either directly or indirectly conspired to keep App Store prices at 30%, so switching between the platforms doesn’t even provide a real choice there at all.

Grustaf 5y ago

> When it comes to other businesses, consumers have choice. If one company charges too much of a premium, consumers can go elsewhere. If I go elsewhere from Apple, I lose access to all of my purchased items. Well Apple has always charged 30%, so it would be strange if you suddenly wanted to change platforms now because of that. It's reasonable to ask you to do your research before buying it.

coder543 5y ago
Why would it be strange to want the freedom to choose again when Apple is expanding the set of things that are covered by a 30% commission?[0] Are you suggesting I should have illegally acquired information about Apple’s future business plans so that I could make informed choices as a consumer? I certainly never agreed to their expansion of the commission, but what power does a consumer have over that now? That’s what monopoly power feels like, even if it may not meet the legal definition of “monopoly” that was set many decades ago before a smartphone was even imaginable. Apple seems intent to expand their 30% commission to cover all aspects of daily life nowadays. I certainly didn’t know this years ago, and years ago when many consumers bought into iOS, the 30% commission was really just a commission on Angry Birds and similarly casual apps. It wasn’t impacting more serious parts of life, but now the smartphone is the place where the average person does some of the most important transactions in life. It’s a completely different situation from when the App Store first launched, and it should be treated as such. Do you recognize the validity of any of that? [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/28/technology/apple-app-store-airbnb-classpass.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/28/technology/apple-app-stor...
- Grustaf 5y ago
  The companies expanded the acope of their activities, from physical to virtual. Apple’s policies remained the same. As to covering all the important things in life, it’s only an issue for things that are 1. Not physical, or “content”, and 2. Not available through the browser. Can’t think of anything important in life that you HAVE to pay the 30% on, but I’m sure there’s something.
  - 5y ago