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Yep! And it's getting more and more - technically cell phones are computers, but at the same time so are Tv's and such! So, it's more of the same, computer use

Yep! And it's getting more and more - technically cell phones are computers, but at the same time so are Tv's and such! So, it's more of the same, computer use is dwindling and so is general computer literacy. e.g. Ask what a file is, or a directory and majority of iphone users have no idea! Permissions too! I find it so exciting, I read about this a while back, e.g. 2015, for user experiences and literacy and back then were reports that the entry curve for computers has been removed via cell phones (iphones, androids, e.g. general smartphones.) that daily computing difficulties do not present themselves as they used too (and they still exist.) from virus, malware, to sorting files, organization, search, and general software competency like excel and such. But ask about social media apps and how they work - and there you go (which, ironically suffer the same issues on purpose, how do you sort information, organize new content or higher fruitful content, etc.) There's also the fun part of addiction and dopamine feedback loops, but I'm getting a bit off the track here. :)

dpflan 5y ago
Can you elaborate on your excitement? Your username seems to imply enjoyment of, interest in these complexities while your statement seems to indicate excitement that others are not getting exposed to these complexities. There is benefit to yourself (and the technically literate) because you/they can truly understand and change something versus be stymied (so, "employable").
- cogman10 5y ago
  Well, the good thing about the current software ecosystem is that end users don't need to understand access control policies in order to safely operate their devices. In otherwords, the barrier to correctly using a general computing device is MUCH lower. As someone that grew up with Win 95, this is a revolution in the way computing works. In the era I entered into computing, to use a computer really did often require at least a little knowledge of DOS or the commandline. Absolutely it required you to know how files and folders worked. Viruses were super common and super easy to catch as we started entering the internet era. So part of correctly operating a computer involved picking and maintaining the right AV software. That's a barrier that has kept people out of computing in general. Now, everyone's grandma is on facebook (for better or worse). Everyone knows how to use a search engine. Even those that don't know how to use a search engine, know how to do "Siri: What is the capital of Kansas?". Knowledge is hyper accessible. (This also exposes new epistemological issues. How can we verify something is true when it requires hours of research, even with the internet?)
- jdkjs 5y ago
  The fewer people who understand these complexities, the more money those who do make :)
- rootsudo 5y ago
  Oh, I agree, there is no excitement at the idea of more ignorant users but excitement that there was a giant blowback - instead of devices, end user computing augmenting technical experience, it instead did the opposite. It is not a benefit, but just the realization curve that the more you make things easy, it can appear to be a step forward but instead become many steps back. The whole reason I entered into this field, was because I could not get my computer to work, or that I didn't understand it - probably both, and it drove me to overcome those barriers. I was of course a kid, and the computer itself has entertained me and gave me decision paths that I would've never known possible without it. It really is sad, those experiences seem gone to the sands of time and if a device doesn't work properly, then it's not per se the customer or audience, but an user experience flaw.
brimble 5y ago
> Ask what a file is, or a directory and majority of iphone users have no idea! Permissions too! I have bad news for you if you think normal computer users were mostly good at understanding or explaining these things in the 90s or 2000s or whatever.
- gorjusborg 5y ago
  That could be just another way of saying 'normal' computer users were not really 'computer literate' during those times. Having lived through them myself, I wouldn't argue. That said, I think the the term 'computer literate' is much less defined than 'literate', so using the term is a good way to start an argument.
  - brimble 5y ago
    Yeah, I just disagree with "iPhones are making people unable to use computers well" concerns, whatever the definition of "computer literate". My experience has been that outside of enthusiast or professional tech circles, and those directly adjacent, knowing stuff like where to expect a USB disk to appear when it's plugged in, or that you can cut/copy/paste files, what you can and can't drag-n-drop, where to expect common actions to show up in menus, the concept of UI focus and how it basically works in practice, and so on, places you in the (lower end of) top-tier of computer users, and pretty much always has. People, in general, have never understood how to use a computer well. We've had the term "power user" for folks who halfway know how to use a computer for decades now, because even most people who work with a desktop every day do not know that, and it's not like that was different pre-smartphone. Either simple, ordinary GUI computer use is actually much harder than we (on a site like this) think, or the UIs and metaphors we use are flat-out awful and need to be re-thought from the ground up (what might that look like? Well, iOS has tried...). Or some combination of the two. [EDIT] My point about the definition of "computer literate" hardly mattering is that I think you have to stretch it so far that it becomes useless before you manage to capture most computer users, since at least when they became common in offices. You have to put the bar practically on the floor before most users will pass it. I don't (entirely) blame users for that, to be clear, and think it has a lot to do with fundamental mistakes in how our profession and industry build & present UIs to ordinary folks who don't want to devote half their brain to understanding how computers work. It has very little to do with iPhones.

dpflan 5y ago

Can you elaborate on your excitement? Your username seems to imply enjoyment of, interest in these complexities while your statement seems to indicate excitement that others are not getting exposed to these complexities. There is benefit to yourself (and the technically literate) because you/they can truly understand and change something versus be stymied (so, "employable").

cogman10 5y ago
Well, the good thing about the current software ecosystem is that end users don't need to understand access control policies in order to safely operate their devices. In otherwords, the barrier to correctly using a general computing device is MUCH lower. As someone that grew up with Win 95, this is a revolution in the way computing works. In the era I entered into computing, to use a computer really did often require at least a little knowledge of DOS or the commandline. Absolutely it required you to know how files and folders worked. Viruses were super common and super easy to catch as we started entering the internet era. So part of correctly operating a computer involved picking and maintaining the right AV software. That's a barrier that has kept people out of computing in general. Now, everyone's grandma is on facebook (for better or worse). Everyone knows how to use a search engine. Even those that don't know how to use a search engine, know how to do "Siri: What is the capital of Kansas?". Knowledge is hyper accessible. (This also exposes new epistemological issues. How can we verify something is true when it requires hours of research, even with the internet?)
jdkjs 5y ago
The fewer people who understand these complexities, the more money those who do make :)
rootsudo 5y ago
Oh, I agree, there is no excitement at the idea of more ignorant users but excitement that there was a giant blowback - instead of devices, end user computing augmenting technical experience, it instead did the opposite. It is not a benefit, but just the realization curve that the more you make things easy, it can appear to be a step forward but instead become many steps back. The whole reason I entered into this field, was because I could not get my computer to work, or that I didn't understand it - probably both, and it drove me to overcome those barriers. I was of course a kid, and the computer itself has entertained me and gave me decision paths that I would've never known possible without it. It really is sad, those experiences seem gone to the sands of time and if a device doesn't work properly, then it's not per se the customer or audience, but an user experience flaw.

brimble 5y ago

> Ask what a file is, or a directory and majority of iphone users have no idea! Permissions too! I have bad news for you if you think normal computer users were mostly good at understanding or explaining these things in the 90s or 2000s or whatever.

gorjusborg 5y ago
That could be just another way of saying 'normal' computer users were not really 'computer literate' during those times. Having lived through them myself, I wouldn't argue. That said, I think the the term 'computer literate' is much less defined than 'literate', so using the term is a good way to start an argument.
- brimble 5y ago
  Yeah, I just disagree with "iPhones are making people unable to use computers well" concerns, whatever the definition of "computer literate". My experience has been that outside of enthusiast or professional tech circles, and those directly adjacent, knowing stuff like where to expect a USB disk to appear when it's plugged in, or that you can cut/copy/paste files, what you can and can't drag-n-drop, where to expect common actions to show up in menus, the concept of UI focus and how it basically works in practice, and so on, places you in the (lower end of) top-tier of computer users, and pretty much always has. People, in general, have never understood how to use a computer well. We've had the term "power user" for folks who halfway know how to use a computer for decades now, because even most people who work with a desktop every day do not know that, and it's not like that was different pre-smartphone. Either simple, ordinary GUI computer use is actually much harder than we (on a site like this) think, or the UIs and metaphors we use are flat-out awful and need to be re-thought from the ground up (what might that look like? Well, iOS has tried...). Or some combination of the two. [EDIT] My point about the definition of "computer literate" hardly mattering is that I think you have to stretch it so far that it becomes useless before you manage to capture most computer users, since at least when they became common in offices. You have to put the bar practically on the floor before most users will pass it. I don't (entirely) blame users for that, to be clear, and think it has a lot to do with fundamental mistakes in how our profession and industry build & present UIs to ordinary folks who don't want to devote half their brain to understanding how computers work. It has very little to do with iPhones.