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the funniest and saddest of all is this though: > My hunch with those companies was that it wouldn't have been a major issue if I was video-ing in from the Sta

the funniest and saddest of all is this though: > My hunch with those companies was that it wouldn't have been a major issue if I was video-ing in from the State Penitentiary (due to murder charges) as long as I solved the algorithms correctly the OP clearly has some skills to his name and even academic background, yet they'd like him to solve coding puzzles i could get $100k freelance contract only after 1 meeting and bit of paperwork, but tech bros won't accept me cause i don't do puzzles

KaoruAoiShiho 5y ago
Sounds like you're bringing in a bit of your personal gripes there as the OP didn't say the other companies wouldn't accept him...
- ushakov 5y ago
  yes, this part speaks to me on personal level
lozenge 5y ago
He didn't mention whether he could or could not do coding puzzles. But if you are accepted purely on coding puzzles, then your colleagues also were. Meaning, they might be difficult to work with (such as: overconfidence, always criticising the code they didn't write, shaming people in large meetings, repeatedly overpromising, or other bad behaviours). Sadly, Shopify's care and interest in his individuality didn't extend past the interview stage, as he was given work that shouldn't be expected from a front end focused developer.
- mattmcknight 5y ago
  > Being stuck handling backend or infrastructure when the job was supposed to be "front end development" is not acceptable Editing HTML templates (ERB) is front end development.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
> we <must> ask algorithm questions to ensure engineers can think properly I thought that described today's interviewing zeitgeist, pretty well. In my experience, absolutely no one even glanced at the dozens of open-source repos (for finished, documented, tested products), or the hundreds of pages of writing I have amassed, over the years, which ahem, are actual artifacts of lots of my "proper" thinking. I've only practiced a few Codility exercises, a few years ago, when I was still interested in working with someone else. Otherwise, I never practice leetcode. As I am quite aware that many, many people practice these types of things, for hours every day (I strongly suspect while being paid by their current employers), I just consider that a wash. If this is a requirement, then I'll never get hired, and I might as well give up (I can actually do reasonably well, at these kinds of things -mostly-, as they are usually basic commonsense exercises, but I won't ever have the rote efficiency of a practiced leetcoder). Since I don't actually need the work, I accepted that this is just the way things are, and withdrew from consideration. Too bad. I suspect that some companies that I would have enjoyed working at, and that I could have been a valuable IC at, are maybe having to deal with less-than-ideal workers.
- ushakov 5y ago
  i feel you Chris, you have actual case studies, projects to show, so much you could talk about people who practice leetcode are either unemployed or too desperate to get a job employers who do this have bad hiring practices and bad attitude my personal advice: get work from people you know, beggars can't be choosers
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    > or too desperate to get a job I wouldn't necessarily say this. Since it is "how things are done," these days, I strongly suspect that folks want every competitive advantage they can get, and it's perfectly understandable. It's just that it's an extremely 1-dimensional way of evaluating people that are supposed to be creative and intelligent. It doesn't actually tell you anything about them; just that they are good at practicing rote (which, to be fair, may be exactly what a corporation is looking for). I am very fortunate. I spent my life, living frugally, and investing carefully, so I have the ability to step back. I know that very few people have this capability. A career is a really big deal, and worth it to prepare for. The problem is that over thirty years of shipping software is not something that is easy to express in a few scholastic tests. It's something that can sometimes be easily demonstrated, but consuming and evaluating it is time-consuming. I have spent a lot more time, preparing my portfolio, than lots of folks have spent at leetcode. If that's not valuable to a company, then, c'est la vie.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> i could get $100k freelance contract only after 1 meeting and bit of paperwork, but tech bros won't accept me cause i don't do puzzles I’ve hired both contractors and employees. Contractors almost always arrive with more of a verifiable portfolio and verifiable references. Contractors are also much easier to cut off early if we realize they aren’t delivering. A $100K contract could end up being cheaper than the amount of money we waste on a bad hire from start to finish by a factor of 2X. The bar for hiring full-time employees is higher than contractors.
- mrtranscendence 5y ago
  How hard is it really to fire someone, though? When I was recently a contractor the company was paying my contracting company well over double what they would've paid for me directly. They could've hired me directly and, if I didn't work out, fired me and given me a massive severance and it still would've been cheaper.
granshaw 5y ago
Hah yeah that line was pure gold and probably just made my day

KaoruAoiShiho 5y ago

Sounds like you're bringing in a bit of your personal gripes there as the OP didn't say the other companies wouldn't accept him...

ushakov 5y ago
yes, this part speaks to me on personal level

lozenge 5y ago

He didn't mention whether he could or could not do coding puzzles. But if you are accepted purely on coding puzzles, then your colleagues also were. Meaning, they might be difficult to work with (such as: overconfidence, always criticising the code they didn't write, shaming people in large meetings, repeatedly overpromising, or other bad behaviours). Sadly, Shopify's care and interest in his individuality didn't extend past the interview stage, as he was given work that shouldn't be expected from a front end focused developer.

mattmcknight 5y ago
> Being stuck handling backend or infrastructure when the job was supposed to be "front end development" is not acceptable Editing HTML templates (ERB) is front end development.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

> we <must> ask algorithm questions to ensure engineers can think properly I thought that described today's interviewing zeitgeist, pretty well. In my experience, absolutely no one even glanced at the dozens of open-source repos (for finished, documented, tested products), or the hundreds of pages of writing I have amassed, over the years, which ahem, are actual artifacts of lots of my "proper" thinking. I've only practiced a few Codility exercises, a few years ago, when I was still interested in working with someone else. Otherwise, I never practice leetcode. As I am quite aware that many, many people practice these types of things, for hours every day (I strongly suspect while being paid by their current employers), I just consider that a wash. If this is a requirement, then I'll never get hired, and I might as well give up (I can actually do reasonably well, at these kinds of things -mostly-, as they are usually basic commonsense exercises, but I won't ever have the rote efficiency of a practiced leetcoder). Since I don't actually need the work, I accepted that this is just the way things are, and withdrew from consideration. Too bad. I suspect that some companies that I would have enjoyed working at, and that I could have been a valuable IC at, are maybe having to deal with less-than-ideal workers.

ushakov 5y ago
i feel you Chris, you have actual case studies, projects to show, so much you could talk about people who practice leetcode are either unemployed or too desperate to get a job employers who do this have bad hiring practices and bad attitude my personal advice: get work from people you know, beggars can't be choosers
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  > or too desperate to get a job I wouldn't necessarily say this. Since it is "how things are done," these days, I strongly suspect that folks want every competitive advantage they can get, and it's perfectly understandable. It's just that it's an extremely 1-dimensional way of evaluating people that are supposed to be creative and intelligent. It doesn't actually tell you anything about them; just that they are good at practicing rote (which, to be fair, may be exactly what a corporation is looking for). I am very fortunate. I spent my life, living frugally, and investing carefully, so I have the ability to step back. I know that very few people have this capability. A career is a really big deal, and worth it to prepare for. The problem is that over thirty years of shipping software is not something that is easy to express in a few scholastic tests. It's something that can sometimes be easily demonstrated, but consuming and evaluating it is time-consuming. I have spent a lot more time, preparing my portfolio, than lots of folks have spent at leetcode. If that's not valuable to a company, then, c'est la vie.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> i could get $100k freelance contract only after 1 meeting and bit of paperwork, but tech bros won't accept me cause i don't do puzzles I’ve hired both contractors and employees. Contractors almost always arrive with more of a verifiable portfolio and verifiable references. Contractors are also much easier to cut off early if we realize they aren’t delivering. A $100K contract could end up being cheaper than the amount of money we waste on a bad hire from start to finish by a factor of 2X. The bar for hiring full-time employees is higher than contractors.

mrtranscendence 5y ago
How hard is it really to fire someone, though? When I was recently a contractor the company was paying my contracting company well over double what they would've paid for me directly. They could've hired me directly and, if I didn't work out, fired me and given me a massive severance and it still would've been cheaper.

granshaw 5y ago

Hah yeah that line was pure gold and probably just made my day