4 ms·

What is flawed? The difficulty arise from the complexity of the problems to solve. In a x11 world, the assumption is that everything that a user runs is fully

by boudin 5y ago

What is flawed? The difficulty arise from the complexity of the problems to solve. In a x11 world, the assumption is that everything that a user runs is fully trusted, any software has access all the inputs, all the audio, everything that is displayed without any restriction. This wasn't a problem 30 years ago, but is quite a blocker for modern approach to security with granular permissions. The architecture of x11 itself does not fit a modern graphical stack, some problem cannot be solved properly like monitors with different framerates, fractional scaling etc... Wayland is just one part of the big efforts that are ongoing to address those issues. This impact the whole desktop ecosystem, it's a massive effort. Wayland will replace X though indeed (coupled with other things) that's the intent.

nsajko 5y ago
> The difficulty arise from the complexity of the problems to solve. What problems are those exactly? It's my impression that Wayland (the protocol) just creates problems without solving any. > Wayland is just one part of the big efforts that are ongoing Yes. The anti-user anti-general-purpose-computing anti-freedom efforts. Trying to create a world where device owners may use their devices only for a set of approved actions such as browsing Instagram and Tiktok. When someone speaks against it, they are attacked with FUD, and "security" is called upon. Does that remind you of anything? Some relevant past comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26753902 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26753902 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758783 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758783 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24886074 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24886074 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758945
- boudin 5y ago
  None of those comments have an actual example. I still have no idea what you complain about, there's really not much difference between using gnome on wayland and gnome on X11 or Sway and I3. In the wayland counterparts though some of the security problems at the core of x11 have been addressed, and input and display just works better. There's no-one forcing you to do anything or forbiding you to do anything.
  - nsajko 5y ago
    > there's really not much difference between using gnome on wayland and gnome on X11 Yes, looking just at big DEs there's not much difference. Consider, however, the problems Wayland causes for the ecosystem. Take screen grabbing programs or input event interceptors like xdotool. There's simply no way to implement one of those strictly on Wayland. Each Wayland compositor must be targeted separately instead. This is discussed in some of the threads I linked to, BTW.
    - boudin 5y ago
      I get your confusion, there is one screenshot API that abstract the compositor but it lies in xdg-desktop: https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal/blob/master/data/org.freedesktop.impl.portal.Screenshot.xml https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal/blob/master/da... The portal for xdg-desktop takes care of the implementation and is the responsibility of the compositor. It's already used by Flameshot for example. There is several xdottool equivalent as well: https://github.com/atx/wtype https://github.com/atx/wtype https://github.com/ReimuNotMoe/ydotool https://github.com/ReimuNotMoe/ydotool This one is specific to wlroot based compositor: https://git.sr.ht/~brocellous/wlrctl https://git.sr.ht/~brocellous/wlrctl
      - nsajko 5y ago
        Fragmentation galore, pretty sure you're actually reinforcing my point with these examples. Can one rely upon any of these hacks, extensions and third-party APIs working for all systems with a Wayland compositor? Some of these are compositor specific, and some are implemented independently of Wayland, but then of course depend on other stuff that's not universal. The current ydotool goes in another direction, it tries to be independent of Wayland, but this also means it doesn't know your keyboard layout, making it less useful. It also requires a privileged daemon running on my system, something I wouldn't give to such an obscure project. These problems don't even exist for X11 users because implementing such functionality is easy because it's supported by X.
        boudin 5y ago

by boudin 5y ago

nsajko 5y ago

> The difficulty arise from the complexity of the problems to solve. What problems are those exactly? It's my impression that Wayland (the protocol) just creates problems without solving any. > Wayland is just one part of the big efforts that are ongoing Yes. The anti-user anti-general-purpose-computing anti-freedom efforts. Trying to create a world where device owners may use their devices only for a set of approved actions such as browsing Instagram and Tiktok. When someone speaks against it, they are attacked with FUD, and "security" is called upon. Does that remind you of anything? Some relevant past comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26753902 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26753902 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758783 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758783 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24886074 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24886074 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758945

boudin 5y ago
None of those comments have an actual example. I still have no idea what you complain about, there's really not much difference between using gnome on wayland and gnome on X11 or Sway and I3. In the wayland counterparts though some of the security problems at the core of x11 have been addressed, and input and display just works better. There's no-one forcing you to do anything or forbiding you to do anything.
- nsajko 5y ago
  > there's really not much difference between using gnome on wayland and gnome on X11 Yes, looking just at big DEs there's not much difference. Consider, however, the problems Wayland causes for the ecosystem. Take screen grabbing programs or input event interceptors like xdotool. There's simply no way to implement one of those strictly on Wayland. Each Wayland compositor must be targeted separately instead. This is discussed in some of the threads I linked to, BTW.
  - boudin 5y ago
    I get your confusion, there is one screenshot API that abstract the compositor but it lies in xdg-desktop: https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal/blob/master/data/org.freedesktop.impl.portal.Screenshot.xml https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal/blob/master/da... The portal for xdg-desktop takes care of the implementation and is the responsibility of the compositor. It's already used by Flameshot for example. There is several xdottool equivalent as well: https://github.com/atx/wtype https://github.com/atx/wtype https://github.com/ReimuNotMoe/ydotool https://github.com/ReimuNotMoe/ydotool This one is specific to wlroot based compositor: https://git.sr.ht/~brocellous/wlrctl https://git.sr.ht/~brocellous/wlrctl
    - nsajko 5y ago
      Fragmentation galore, pretty sure you're actually reinforcing my point with these examples. Can one rely upon any of these hacks, extensions and third-party APIs working for all systems with a Wayland compositor? Some of these are compositor specific, and some are implemented independently of Wayland, but then of course depend on other stuff that's not universal. The current ydotool goes in another direction, it tries to be independent of Wayland, but this also means it doesn't know your keyboard layout, making it less useful. It also requires a privileged daemon running on my system, something I wouldn't give to such an obscure project. These problems don't even exist for X11 users because implementing such functionality is easy because it's supported by X.
      - boudin 5y ago