6 ms·

If you look at the art, it's all just derivative permutation based animal nonsense, self referential crypto memes, or stolen intellectual property. There's noth

by pg_bot 5y ago

If you look at the art, it's all just derivative permutation based animal nonsense, self referential crypto memes, or stolen intellectual property. There's nothing of value there. If you look at the "smart contracts", you find that the majority of NFTs are just links to urls hosted on a server somewhere else. So what you are actually buying is akin to a pamphlet advertising where the Louvre is, when what you thought you've bought was the Mona Lisa. The content behind the URL can change at a moment's notice. Want to put the full content on the blockchain or even a hash of the content? Look at the gas fees for ethereum and tell me it's worth it. Everything in the NFT space is going to zero.

cogman10 5y ago
I subscribe to the theory that this is a money laundering scheme. Create a crypto with "art rules" for the value of every asset and now you've got things whose valuation is completely arbitrary and, oh look, some anonymous wallet wants to give me 2 million dollars for the blinking led asset! Yes, IRS, I got my money from this art auction! Anyone falling for a "legitimate" reason these things exist is a fool.
- pjc50 5y ago
  It's also a market which can sell security-like things while believing it's exempt from SEC enforcement, so you can just have celebrities flog it on TV: https://maxread.substack.com/p/mapping-the-celebrity-nft-complex https://maxread.substack.com/p/mapping-the-celebrity-nft-com...
- sshine 5y ago
  You don't need NTFs to launder money through art. :) https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/29/business/art-money-laundering-sanctions-senate/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/29/business/art-money-launde...
  - cogman10 5y ago
    Oh, I'm not defending the art industry. I'm saying that NFTs are the worst aspects of the art industry in a form that can be exploited by single individuals without producing a physical item. In short, they allow for ultrafast laundering because you don't have to go to art auctions, or generate paper trails, or whatever. Hell, you don't even need valid URLs (though it'd probably look a little fishy if all of your URLs pointed to the 404 collection).
  - piva00 5y ago
    Not at all, it's just much much easier to cover your traces. And the transactions are much faster than auctions.
- stavros 5y ago
  Isn't this widespread knowledge? I'm fairly sure everyone knows this, but reality doesn't seem to confirm my certainty. The NFT space only makes sense as a money-laundering innovation. Why bother with finding art when you can just generate it from nothing?
  - danaris 5y ago
    It is absolutely not widespread knowledge. It is not even generally known as a theory. Even among posts I read that are deeply crypto-skeptical, only a handful claim that NFTs are primarily or intentionally a money laundering scheme, as opposed to that merely being a useful side effect for the crypto-wealthy.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- herval 5y ago
  _If_ it's a money laundering scheme (I also believe a good portion of it is), then reason dictates it'll probably never go to zero (at least until it ceases to be a viable option, eg banned in the countries you use it). Which means NFTs would be here to stay, and probably grow year over year?
simonh 5y ago
I agree it's all flim flam, the random NFTs I've investigated linked to image files on Cloudfront and such. Pure bullshit. I don't agree on going to Zero though, in the medium term anyway, it's likely to stay up in the clouds and possibly for a very long time. Crypto generally has utterly failed as currency for actual economic use, outside tax evasion and money laundering, but in aggregate is still worth silly $billions.
sshine 5y ago
Yes, NTFs are a fad. The research in zk-STARKs is quite interesting and has application beyond blockchain. https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/046.pdf https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/046.pdf A push for technology that protects privacy by design does not just address money laundering. The fact that zk-STARKs can bootstrap on blockchains, in part because of the funding, and in part because of the blockchain's capability to be a global source of truth (which we admittedly then use for URLs to GIFs, speculate about lolcoins, and buy drugs online with).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
thraxil 5y ago
Overall, you're right, though I have seen a few legit, established artists dip their toes into the NFT space (eg, James Jean, Phil Hale). My partner used to run a gallery for new media and digital-focused art. That community has always had the problem that artists working in those media haven't been able to just sell a painting or sculpture the same way that artists working in traditional media. Anything that would actually make it straightforward for artists working in digital media to make a living would be welcome and there was some hope that NFTs might be that. From what I've seen, a few have made a bunch of money, but mostly that community has rejected NFTs. Some because of environmental concerns, some because of all the usual reasons that come up in NFT/crypto discussions, and some because of the backlash itself (you might make some money minting an NFT, but you're also likely to lose a lot of your existing fans). The result is that most of what's left in NFTs now is the scammy, ponzi-scheme-y, low creativity generative ape type stuff and it's looking like that's going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I recommend following Kyle McDonald on twitter (@kcimc) if you want some deep dives on exactly why a lot of artists are skeptical about crypto/web3/NFT stuff.

by pg_bot 5y ago

cogman10 5y ago

I subscribe to the theory that this is a money laundering scheme. Create a crypto with "art rules" for the value of every asset and now you've got things whose valuation is completely arbitrary and, oh look, some anonymous wallet wants to give me 2 million dollars for the blinking led asset! Yes, IRS, I got my money from this art auction! Anyone falling for a "legitimate" reason these things exist is a fool.

pjc50 5y ago
It's also a market which can sell security-like things while believing it's exempt from SEC enforcement, so you can just have celebrities flog it on TV: https://maxread.substack.com/p/mapping-the-celebrity-nft-complex https://maxread.substack.com/p/mapping-the-celebrity-nft-com...
sshine 5y ago
You don't need NTFs to launder money through art. :) https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/29/business/art-money-laundering-sanctions-senate/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/29/business/art-money-launde...
- cogman10 5y ago
  Oh, I'm not defending the art industry. I'm saying that NFTs are the worst aspects of the art industry in a form that can be exploited by single individuals without producing a physical item. In short, they allow for ultrafast laundering because you don't have to go to art auctions, or generate paper trails, or whatever. Hell, you don't even need valid URLs (though it'd probably look a little fishy if all of your URLs pointed to the 404 collection).
- piva00 5y ago
  Not at all, it's just much much easier to cover your traces. And the transactions are much faster than auctions.
stavros 5y ago
Isn't this widespread knowledge? I'm fairly sure everyone knows this, but reality doesn't seem to confirm my certainty. The NFT space only makes sense as a money-laundering innovation. Why bother with finding art when you can just generate it from nothing?
- danaris 5y ago
  It is absolutely not widespread knowledge. It is not even generally known as a theory. Even among posts I read that are deeply crypto-skeptical, only a handful claim that NFTs are primarily or intentionally a money laundering scheme, as opposed to that merely being a useful side effect for the crypto-wealthy.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
herval 5y ago
_If_ it's a money laundering scheme (I also believe a good portion of it is), then reason dictates it'll probably never go to zero (at least until it ceases to be a viable option, eg banned in the countries you use it). Which means NFTs would be here to stay, and probably grow year over year?

simonh 5y ago

I agree it's all flim flam, the random NFTs I've investigated linked to image files on Cloudfront and such. Pure bullshit. I don't agree on going to Zero though, in the medium term anyway, it's likely to stay up in the clouds and possibly for a very long time. Crypto generally has utterly failed as currency for actual economic use, outside tax evasion and money laundering, but in aggregate is still worth silly $billions.

sshine 5y ago

Yes, NTFs are a fad. The research in zk-STARKs is quite interesting and has application beyond blockchain. https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/046.pdf https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/046.pdf A push for technology that protects privacy by design does not just address money laundering. The fact that zk-STARKs can bootstrap on blockchains, in part because of the funding, and in part because of the blockchain's capability to be a global source of truth (which we admittedly then use for URLs to GIFs, speculate about lolcoins, and buy drugs online with).

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

thraxil 5y ago

Overall, you're right, though I have seen a few legit, established artists dip their toes into the NFT space (eg, James Jean, Phil Hale). My partner used to run a gallery for new media and digital-focused art. That community has always had the problem that artists working in those media haven't been able to just sell a painting or sculpture the same way that artists working in traditional media. Anything that would actually make it straightforward for artists working in digital media to make a living would be welcome and there was some hope that NFTs might be that. From what I've seen, a few have made a bunch of money, but mostly that community has rejected NFTs. Some because of environmental concerns, some because of all the usual reasons that come up in NFT/crypto discussions, and some because of the backlash itself (you might make some money minting an NFT, but you're also likely to lose a lot of your existing fans). The result is that most of what's left in NFTs now is the scammy, ponzi-scheme-y, low creativity generative ape type stuff and it's looking like that's going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I recommend following Kyle McDonald on twitter (@kcimc) if you want some deep dives on exactly why a lot of artists are skeptical about crypto/web3/NFT stuff.