4 ms·

Example: Wikileaks being funded using Bitcoin when PayPal, Visa and other payment companies blocked transactions

threeseed 5y ago
That was because, whether you agree with it or not, the US government deemed their behaviour to be illegal. And so the issue you have is not with Paypal, Visa etc unless you think that those payment companies should tolerate illegal parties transacting money. Because that is a very slippery slope especially given how much wealth in the world comes from the despair of the very poor and helpless.
- Zak 5y ago
  > That was because, whether you agree with it or not, the US government deemed their behaviour to be illegal. There are, and should be real-world limits on the ability of the US government to stop things from happening by deeming them illegal. In the case of Wikileaks, one such limitation is the relatively decentralized nature of the internet. The US government was able to pressure Amazon to refuse to host it, but was unsuccessful in pressuring OVH, so Wikileaks remains online. There is no Great Firewall of America, so it remains accessible within the US. Another limitation is that while the US government can and did pressure Paypal to refuse service to Wikileaks, there's no equivalent for preventing transfers of cryptocurrencies.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    > There are, and should be real-world limits on the ability of the US government to stop things from happening by deeming them illegal. It already exists: the legal system. > there's no equivalent for preventing transfers of cryptocurrencies Money laundering, child trafficking, drug profiteering, terrorism etc. they all come with costs. And doing nothing to stop them is not good for anyone.
    - im3w1l 5y ago
      I'm not American and neither is Wikileaks. My country is not an enemy of America but neither is our support unconditional. I think it's great that Wikileaks drops American dirt. I think it's not great that America tries to cutoff donations to cover up its dirt. I think it's great that alternative payment systems circumvent that.
alexb_ 5y ago
Let me ask a better question. What exactly are the valid use cases that are not already better served with centralized systems THAT DOES NOT involve illegal activity?
- mateuszf 5y ago
  Another use case would be protection from inflation - if you're in a country which prints money carelessly or for political reasons. Of course you could say that Bitcoin is worthless and not proved as store of value, but that's not for me or you to decide, it's what's decided by the market.
- rvz 5y ago
  Here's a good answer: So having your own blockchain domain and even using it as a method of login is illegal and centralised now? [0] ENS is a good existing example and concept 'so-far' of a valid use case, even when I disagree with it being implemented on Ethereum. As for payments, cryptocurrencies that have blockchains like Bitcoin should be dismissed in the long term. Regulated stablecoins seem better for that purpose these days. [0] https://www.skiff.org/ https://www.skiff.org/
doorman38 5y ago
Notice a major keyword you used there - “Bitcoin”. Which we all know has a real world use case (several countries have made it their national currency for crying out loud), just as the example you gave with Wikileaks. Nobody could stop people sending it, period. Everything else (and yes I’m even referring to ETH) is crap. It’s not truly decentralized, doesn’t have a REAL world use case (get real and be honest please), and don’t have anyone (or entity) “in charge” of it. Those are the major (among other) things that a real crypto is supposed to have by very definition. Everything else is worthless (a “get rich scam”), and we all know it. And shame on those creating that crap, along with those gullible enough to buy them. Seriously, wake up. It’s just the hard cold truth, and we all know it. Sorry to break it to most people, but apparently most don’t understand this “common sense” concept that is stupidly obvious in my opinion. Even in the case of ETH (the undoubted #2 crypto), what would happen if Putin decided to go after Vitalik with all his might and the supper of the entire Russian government? You really think he’d stand a chance (and that’s assuming he’s a saint as well)? Again, wake up everyone. There’s a very good reason BTC has no “admins” or “chair board”, because nobody can corrupt it. Even the creator(s) of BTC were smart enough to not use their real names and lock themselves out of the system, and then disappear. They know what was coming. And now so should you. It’s really not complicated. There’s so many extremely powerful , rich, and ruthless people out there that stand to lose everything if this succeeds. You really Think they aren’t going to put up a fight?!? Get real. But that’s only if they know who to go after….
- alexb_ 5y ago
  How much Bitcoin do you own? Why should I listen to a user who was created 26 minutes ago, with this as their only post, telling me about how amazing Bitcoin in particular is?
  - doorman38 5y ago
    That’s the best part - YOU DON’T! Makes no difference to me bud. Seriously. I’m not asking you to trust “me”, I’m asking you to look at the cold hard facts, that’s all. And if you don’t want to, that’s cool too. I’ll still be fine, just FYI.
  - 5y ago

That was because, whether you agree with it or not, the US government deemed their behaviour to be illegal. And so the issue you have is not with Paypal, Visa etc unless you think that those payment companies should tolerate illegal parties transacting money. Because that is a very slippery slope especially given how much wealth in the world comes from the despair of the very poor and helpless.

Zak 5y ago
> That was because, whether you agree with it or not, the US government deemed their behaviour to be illegal. There are, and should be real-world limits on the ability of the US government to stop things from happening by deeming them illegal. In the case of Wikileaks, one such limitation is the relatively decentralized nature of the internet. The US government was able to pressure Amazon to refuse to host it, but was unsuccessful in pressuring OVH, so Wikileaks remains online. There is no Great Firewall of America, so it remains accessible within the US. Another limitation is that while the US government can and did pressure Paypal to refuse service to Wikileaks, there's no equivalent for preventing transfers of cryptocurrencies.
- threeseed 5y ago
  > There are, and should be real-world limits on the ability of the US government to stop things from happening by deeming them illegal. It already exists: the legal system. > there's no equivalent for preventing transfers of cryptocurrencies Money laundering, child trafficking, drug profiteering, terrorism etc. they all come with costs. And doing nothing to stop them is not good for anyone.
  - im3w1l 5y ago
    I'm not American and neither is Wikileaks. My country is not an enemy of America but neither is our support unconditional. I think it's great that Wikileaks drops American dirt. I think it's not great that America tries to cutoff donations to cover up its dirt. I think it's great that alternative payment systems circumvent that.

alexb_ 5y ago

Let me ask a better question. What exactly are the valid use cases that are not already better served with centralized systems THAT DOES NOT involve illegal activity?

mateuszf 5y ago
Another use case would be protection from inflation - if you're in a country which prints money carelessly or for political reasons. Of course you could say that Bitcoin is worthless and not proved as store of value, but that's not for me or you to decide, it's what's decided by the market.
rvz 5y ago
Here's a good answer: So having your own blockchain domain and even using it as a method of login is illegal and centralised now? [0] ENS is a good existing example and concept 'so-far' of a valid use case, even when I disagree with it being implemented on Ethereum. As for payments, cryptocurrencies that have blockchains like Bitcoin should be dismissed in the long term. Regulated stablecoins seem better for that purpose these days. [0] https://www.skiff.org/ https://www.skiff.org/

doorman38 5y ago

Notice a major keyword you used there - “Bitcoin”. Which we all know has a real world use case (several countries have made it their national currency for crying out loud), just as the example you gave with Wikileaks. Nobody could stop people sending it, period. Everything else (and yes I’m even referring to ETH) is crap. It’s not truly decentralized, doesn’t have a REAL world use case (get real and be honest please), and don’t have anyone (or entity) “in charge” of it. Those are the major (among other) things that a real crypto is supposed to have by very definition. Everything else is worthless (a “get rich scam”), and we all know it. And shame on those creating that crap, along with those gullible enough to buy them. Seriously, wake up. It’s just the hard cold truth, and we all know it. Sorry to break it to most people, but apparently most don’t understand this “common sense” concept that is stupidly obvious in my opinion. Even in the case of ETH (the undoubted #2 crypto), what would happen if Putin decided to go after Vitalik with all his might and the supper of the entire Russian government? You really think he’d stand a chance (and that’s assuming he’s a saint as well)? Again, wake up everyone. There’s a very good reason BTC has no “admins” or “chair board”, because nobody can corrupt it. Even the creator(s) of BTC were smart enough to not use their real names and lock themselves out of the system, and then disappear. They know what was coming. And now so should you. It’s really not complicated. There’s so many extremely powerful , rich, and ruthless people out there that stand to lose everything if this succeeds. You really Think they aren’t going to put up a fight?!? Get real. But that’s only if they know who to go after….

alexb_ 5y ago
How much Bitcoin do you own? Why should I listen to a user who was created 26 minutes ago, with this as their only post, telling me about how amazing Bitcoin in particular is?
- doorman38 5y ago
  That’s the best part - YOU DON’T! Makes no difference to me bud. Seriously. I’m not asking you to trust “me”, I’m asking you to look at the cold hard facts, that’s all. And if you don’t want to, that’s cool too. I’ll still be fine, just FYI.
- 5y ago