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> And it's worth noting that Japan is pretty far behind in terms of integrated ticketing for occasional journeys (although commuter passes are integrated betwee

> And it's worth noting that Japan is pretty far behind in terms of integrated ticketing for occasional journeys (although commuter passes are integrated between different companies). Firstly, Japan actually has very good integrated ticketing, namely you don't buy tickets at all. You wave your phone/card over the stall on entry and wave it again at whatever station you exit from, and the system calculates the fare at exit. (And it's discounted from the price of actually buying tickets.) Japanese train station gates allow more people to move in and out of the station than any other model of station I have seen in any country. Secondly, the over-focus on integrated ticketing misses that the important thing is integrated payment. It wasn't the case until some number of years ago, but nowadays everything but the most rural of rural lines has a single shared national system for IC card payment that is easy to use. The IC cards can even be used at most grocery stores and restaurants. They even work for foreigners and are a great alternative to cash to avoid having to calculate payments.

lmm 5y ago
> Firstly, Japan actually has very good integrated ticketing, namely you don't buy tickets at all. You wave your phone/card over the stall on entry and wave it again at whatever station you exit from, and the system calculates the fare at exit. You missed having to go through interchange gates or, more commonly, exit and re-enter when you're changing lines. The fact that ticket payment is easy mitigates the damage somewhat, but the fact remains that tickets aren't integrated and this has genuine costs; people often end up travelling a longer way around so that they can stay within a single operator's network, because the fare structure incentivises them to do that.
- masklinn 5y ago
  It’s also a common tourist trap: first time around in Tokyo, you don’t realise how the networks work and that ticketing is not integrated (but payment is), and you end up paying way more in fares than you might have expected.
  - mlindner 5y ago
    I don't know if I'm "trapped" but switching between lines was trivial and the price differences being so marginal it didn't even matter. I don't care that I'm spending 30 yen (roughly $0.30) extra for a more direct route.
    - lmm 5y ago
      It's often far from marginal. E.g. Shinanomachi to Shin-Okubo: one change on the same company's trains, JPY160. Shinanomachi to Nishi-Shinjuku: similar distance, one change again, but you're changing to a different company's train so it's JPY310, about twice as much.
    - masklinn 5y ago
      > I don't know if I'm "trapped" but switching between lines was trivial That’s the trap, it’s extremely easy to change networks. > the price differences being so marginal it didn't even matter. I don't care that I'm spending 30 yen (roughly $0.30) extra for a more direct route. That was not my experience at all. The price difference was routinely 100% or more, especially for cross-city trips where the “direct” route would have multiple network swaps, whereas a slightly less direct route (adding maybe 1/10th the trip length or less) would have 0~1 network changes. In fact, just looking at the fare structures you can’t be correct: they start at 170~180Y, and reach double the initial fare at something like 40km. I would expect JR to be similar. The entry fare is an outsized component of the total, and will be the vast majority of it unless you travel very long distances. Even more so if you network switch as the “distance counter” resets on every network change. So if you make a single trip with one network change you’ll be paying 350Y minimum, versus under 200 if you remain in-network and the distance traveled is below 10km or so.
- mlindner 5y ago
  > You missed having to go through interchange gates or, more commonly, exit and re-enter when you're changing lines. But that's as fast as walking through them so it's not an issue. Thus it's "integrated" even though it's not fully integrated in the normal sense. In other words the lack of "integration" disappears.
  - lmm 5y ago
    It's "as fast as walking" but the walking route is often convoluted because you have to be funnelled through fare gates, so it does cost you time. And, more to the point, money.
franciscop 5y ago
Something sad of Japan IMHO, is that the national IC system works that well that credit card acceptance has been delayed greatly (and the whole banking system is a joke but that's a topic for another day). For the last 5 years every time I go back to my home country I see wonderful innovations and steps forward, while today you still find many places that don't accept credit card at all in central Tokyo, let alone tap-to-pay. A good example on-topic is that I've heard that in London you can pay with your credit card straight away on the underground tickets, tap it and enter and then tap it to exit (and you get charged), no need to even buy tickets. Note: I'm comparing this to Europe, I've heard that Japan is amazing compared to the US so I guess CC and payment systems in EU should be even more amazing for the US readers over here?
- lmz 5y ago
  This article https://atadistance.net/2020/06/13/transit-gate-evolution-why-gate-speed-matters/ https://atadistance.net/2020/06/13/transit-gate-evolution-wh... claims that the Japanese technology is faster than the EMV contactless. I guess EMV is more convenient if you already have the cards though.

lmm 5y ago

> Firstly, Japan actually has very good integrated ticketing, namely you don't buy tickets at all. You wave your phone/card over the stall on entry and wave it again at whatever station you exit from, and the system calculates the fare at exit. You missed having to go through interchange gates or, more commonly, exit and re-enter when you're changing lines. The fact that ticket payment is easy mitigates the damage somewhat, but the fact remains that tickets aren't integrated and this has genuine costs; people often end up travelling a longer way around so that they can stay within a single operator's network, because the fare structure incentivises them to do that.

masklinn 5y ago
It’s also a common tourist trap: first time around in Tokyo, you don’t realise how the networks work and that ticketing is not integrated (but payment is), and you end up paying way more in fares than you might have expected.
- mlindner 5y ago
  I don't know if I'm "trapped" but switching between lines was trivial and the price differences being so marginal it didn't even matter. I don't care that I'm spending 30 yen (roughly $0.30) extra for a more direct route.
  - lmm 5y ago
    It's often far from marginal. E.g. Shinanomachi to Shin-Okubo: one change on the same company's trains, JPY160. Shinanomachi to Nishi-Shinjuku: similar distance, one change again, but you're changing to a different company's train so it's JPY310, about twice as much.
  - masklinn 5y ago
    > I don't know if I'm "trapped" but switching between lines was trivial That’s the trap, it’s extremely easy to change networks. > the price differences being so marginal it didn't even matter. I don't care that I'm spending 30 yen (roughly $0.30) extra for a more direct route. That was not my experience at all. The price difference was routinely 100% or more, especially for cross-city trips where the “direct” route would have multiple network swaps, whereas a slightly less direct route (adding maybe 1/10th the trip length or less) would have 0~1 network changes. In fact, just looking at the fare structures you can’t be correct: they start at 170~180Y, and reach double the initial fare at something like 40km. I would expect JR to be similar. The entry fare is an outsized component of the total, and will be the vast majority of it unless you travel very long distances. Even more so if you network switch as the “distance counter” resets on every network change. So if you make a single trip with one network change you’ll be paying 350Y minimum, versus under 200 if you remain in-network and the distance traveled is below 10km or so.
mlindner 5y ago
> You missed having to go through interchange gates or, more commonly, exit and re-enter when you're changing lines. But that's as fast as walking through them so it's not an issue. Thus it's "integrated" even though it's not fully integrated in the normal sense. In other words the lack of "integration" disappears.
- lmm 5y ago
  It's "as fast as walking" but the walking route is often convoluted because you have to be funnelled through fare gates, so it does cost you time. And, more to the point, money.

franciscop 5y ago

Something sad of Japan IMHO, is that the national IC system works that well that credit card acceptance has been delayed greatly (and the whole banking system is a joke but that's a topic for another day). For the last 5 years every time I go back to my home country I see wonderful innovations and steps forward, while today you still find many places that don't accept credit card at all in central Tokyo, let alone tap-to-pay. A good example on-topic is that I've heard that in London you can pay with your credit card straight away on the underground tickets, tap it and enter and then tap it to exit (and you get charged), no need to even buy tickets. Note: I'm comparing this to Europe, I've heard that Japan is amazing compared to the US so I guess CC and payment systems in EU should be even more amazing for the US readers over here?

lmz 5y ago
This article https://atadistance.net/2020/06/13/transit-gate-evolution-why-gate-speed-matters/ https://atadistance.net/2020/06/13/transit-gate-evolution-wh... claims that the Japanese technology is faster than the EMV contactless. I guess EMV is more convenient if you already have the cards though.