24 ms·

Ten Years of ThinkPadding

362 points by koiueo 5y ago

tiku 5y ago
Excellent memeing in the picture. +1
- dm319 5y ago
  oh dear just got it.
titzer 5y ago
I switched briefly to a Thinkpad from Macbook for about a year. It was all fine until the RAM started failing. No problem, just pop it open and find what kind of SIMMs it takes...oh, RAM soldered in. And now it's a brick.
koiueo 5y ago
ThinkPad fan reflecting on a decade of his loyalty to the brand
ulzeraj 5y ago
This guy Archs (btw).
- koiueo 5y ago
  transitioning to NixOS (btw) :)
  - mkesper 5y ago
    If your last try with Debian was about 10 years ago, maybe give it another try? I find Debian stable exactly that: rock stable. Support for older HW is also great, offering enough Desktop choice.
    - kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
      Not OP, but for a desktop, the AUR makes every single other Linux distro objectively hard to use. Also dpkg is slow and breaks more than I would like. I should also mention I do in fact use Arch btw.
    - gkhartman 5y ago
      I'll second Debian. I toggled between Ubuntu and Fedora for 10 yrs. Too many dodgy updates on Fedora, too much "is that package a deb or a snap" on Ubuntu. After working in RHEL based companies for many years, I switched to Centos and fought the out of date packages (sometimes building stuff from source) until the IBM takeover. Debian has been a good middle ground with newish packages that I rarely have to fight to get my work done.
  - zinxq 5y ago
    with Nix .. there is no "transition" .. only "do"
hughrr 5y ago
I’ve run at least one Thinkpad in parallel with a MacBook for the last 15 years. In 2020 I sold my last Thinkpad, an AMD T495s. The M1 MBA destroyed my tolerance for another Intel laptop entirely.
m_st 5y ago
Didn't read it all, but regarding the battery and sleep issue: I can totally relate to such issues with my Dell XPS 15 9550 (2015) and 9510 (2021). Windows has this setting "When I close the lid" which is set to "Sleep". In fact it should be renamed as "Drain the battery and heat the bag". Being a happy MacBook user since they were called PowerBook, I never ever had any such issue with an Apple laptop. Not even, when they were using the same Intel CPUs. Worse, some months ago I even found a Dell support forum post where they said, to not use sleep mode when putting your laptop away.
- Robinxd 5y ago
  Ironically, I have had the same experience with MacBook Pro 2017 model. It’s got some other funky bugs too, but it’s not my main driver either.
- mcv 5y ago
  I still don't understand how Windows could possibly have become so bad at sleeping. Both desktops and laptops have a tendency to wake up at weird times and then never go to sleep. This stuff used to work. What happened?
  - hughrr 5y ago
    Microsoft replaced QA with telemetry.
  - pizza234 5y ago
    This is possibly the so-called "Connected Standby" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InstantGo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InstantGo), an infamous Windows anti-feature. I believe, although I'm not 100% sure, that in addition to turning on the computer without the user consent, it also puts the machine in a strange state where it's neither on nor off. According to the spec: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InstantGo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InstantGo, it's allowed to suck up to 7.5% of battery every day. As a matter of fact, my Surface device would lose more than 5% every day, and I'd find odd periods of wakeup in the sleep log (when the machine was supposedly fully shutdown).
loser777 5y ago
A T420 was my daily driver through undergrad, and then collected dust during grad school when I was issued a Macbook. When I returned my Macbook I dusted it off and was surprised by how usable it was (and how usable and well-supported it was running Arch compared to debian in the early 2010s). I finally gave in and upgraded the memory (DDR3!) to 16 GiB recently, and am considering getting a third-party 9-cell battery, as my 9+ year old one has gotten long in the tooth (i3's battery "widget" reports ~70% fully charged). I dare say it's my most usable travel laptop outside of my work-issued Yoga, which it still trounces in terms of keyboard ergonomics. It absolutely dunks on the bargin-bin laptops I've tried out over the past few years, I think in part because of ergonomics but also because Arch on old (but well-supported) hardware feels snappier than Windows 10 on new (but low-cost) hardware.
- NikolaNovak 5y ago
  If you like t420 try the t420s. Same laptop but slimmer and makes it much more transportable. Still has ultra bay, great keyboard, and easy access to everything. I have 3 around the house for various family members and it works great :)
  - zwog 5y ago
    I t420s fell out of my opened backpack a couple of days ago. Not the first time it fell, once I even stepped on it - but after the last drop the display has some problems and i have to push on a certain point to get it working, which made me put it to it's well deserved retirement.[*] In need of an quick alternative I bought a Dell XPS 13 9343. I like this a lot - it has a way nicer display, the form factor is just great for my needs, build quality is good and even the keyboard feels right (missing a trackpoint tho). Unfortunately it supports Microsoft's "Modern Standy", which is a fancy name for s2idle - which just doesn't work using Linux, at least I couldn't get it to work . When in s2idle it looses power and does not reliably wake up, in s3 it goes to sleep but needs a hard reset to wake up. Waiting for my t470s now, as far as I know the latest Thinkpad generation stat supports classic s3 sleep. *: Actually it lives on as a small NAS/Homeserver. It even packs three disks (M2 SSD, HDD in the HDD slot and an Ultrabay-HDD adpter).
odiroot 5y ago
The part about power usage is interesting. I work on a T14 AMD and yes, I had the annoying wake-ups when closing the lid. But this was fixed by the firmware upgrade. I cannot relate to battery drain when sleeping. I can leave the laptop asleep for 4+ days and it still retains enough battery to use it (maybe 20-30%).
GEBBL 5y ago
I still have a backup x220 that I run with 16GB ram to run various containers, vm images and other x86 workloads that I can’t with my M1 Mac. It’s an excellent low power second option.
kogepathic 5y ago
> My X13 AMD, for example, has a powerful 32-core AMD APU, 32GiB of RAM, and a superfast 1TiB NVMe SSD. The X13 does not have a 32-core APU. The highest spec available is the 4750U with 8C/16T. > By the way, the latest MacBook Pro comes with an Ethernet port. We loved the jokes about iDongle; how about ThinkDongle? The latest MacBook Pro does not come with an Ethernet port. It is however very annoying that Lenovo requires a proprietary dongle to use the built-in Ethernet controller. > The removal of the SD cards slot and Ethernet port has made recent ThinkPads a suboptimal choice for traveling photographers and some IT professionals. The removal of the SD card reader on the X13 AMD Gen 2 is bizarre, but they can and do still offer Ethernet via a dongle. > would you read about the update procedure after you’ve done multiple BIOS updates for the same machine already? Even if you would, would you pay much attention to the Notes section? Yes, but I'm probably weird because I like to know what the vendor fixed and whether the firmware update might remove features that I use (shakes fist at Dell). I own an X13 AMD Gen 2 (20XH), and I think it's a great laptop with some small caveats. Pro: - 1600p matte display looks amazing - proper support for S3, very low S3 power consumption - super quiet, I never hear the fan and the laptop is never uncomfortably hot (even doing heavy things like compiling buildroot) - amazing performance for a laptop (5850U) Con: - no SD card reader (seriously, why?) - proprietary dongle for Ethernet - Ethernet is only GigE - Came with MediaTek 7961 WiFi, which while supported by mainline Linux, the performance is trash (~30MBit on 802.11ac). Luckily it's only M.2 so you can replace it with something like the AX201
- koiueo 5y ago
  > The X13 does not have a 32-core APU. The highest spec available is the 4750U with 8C/16T. > The latest MacBook Pro does not come with an Ethernet port. Thank you for catching all this. Fixed. > - 1600p matte display looks amazing I agree, matte display is great. And as I said, I calibrated mine. > - proper support for S3, very low S3 power consumption Strange, I've seen reports on the Lenovo support forums that Gen 2 laptops are also susceptible to the battery drain in S3. Was it always like this? Or was it fixed with some firmware update?
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
taubek 5y ago
For me T460 is still the king. I like my new T15, but I miss things like two batteries.
- gonzo41 5y ago
  Im on my t460 right now :) With Ubuntu I honestly don't see much drama. It kinda a bummer in some regards. It just keeps working so I have no good excuse after 5 years to get another laptop. I've broken it a few times dropping it. And being able to download the manual, order parts and then repair at home has been really nice. I hope lenovo understands that this is a big feature of thinkpads.
  - taubek 5y ago
    I was also looking bor replacement, but I just couldn't justify it to myself. With 16 gigs of RAM and 512G SSD it works like a charm. I think that the fan will be the first thing that I'll need to replace...
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  My only complaint about the T460 is they have already discontinued replacement batteries. They are still available in the channel but it's hard to know whether you are getting the real thing or not.
  - taubek 5y ago
    In my country Green Cell batteries are pretty popular as replacement batteries. I can see that they still have T460 batteries (https://greencell.global/en/search?controller=search&orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=t460 https://greencell.global/en/search?controller=search&orderby...).
- karussell 5y ago
  I still like my T460 too, especially because Ubuntu works completely flawlessly. Also as I was able to buy a warranty for over 5 years where they came in my office and replaced stuff without shipping and long waiting :) Had to use this once after a year when the mainboard broke (cpu freezed) Battery time is still ~6h (bought the extra large second battery and was ~12h initially) The keyboard + display are great (the display is now after >5 years a bit white in certain spots but nothing critical). The CPU speed isn't that great but ok. The sound is really really bad :)
WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
My X220 is like the grandpa’s axe. Over the decade that I have owned it, I have replaced everything. What I like the most about that design is that it’s easy to disassemble it to bits and reassemble it back non-destructively.
- snemvalts 5y ago
  The biggest build quality problem on it (and x230) is the top bar made of plastic, at the top of the back of the lid, for antennas. It's held so weakly that even a 10-20cm drop will break the plastic clips.
  - WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
    Given it's housing the antennas, there's not much choice of what it can be made of. Cannot be very heavy too, so laptop wouldn't topple.
    - snemvalts 5y ago
      Probably storing them in near plastic of the screen frame. Newer thinkpads (x270 etc) don't have it. Nor do macbooks.
- Phenix88be 5y ago
  Did you replace the screen somehow ? I have a X220, replaced a lot of stuff, but I barely use it today because the 1366x768 screen is not enough anymore... At least a 1080p display is the bare minimum today.
  - ct0 5y ago
    I use a dock to add a secondary display that goes directly above the laptop screen.
  - post_break 5y ago
    You can get a PEPE board and upgrade to a 1080p display. It's not super easy to solder on or source the screen though.
rei_ayanami 5y ago
I love my x270.
- amiga-workbench 5y ago
  Same, I've been getting on really well with mine after upgrading from an X201T last year. I do think this is going to be my last ThinkPad though, user-replicable RAM has been jettisoned on all subsequent X series machines, and the loss of the SD card reader is another kick in the teeth. The new keyboard layout is garbage too, I miss the 7 row keyboard a lot. At the very least, I just wish I had my page back/forward keys back.
  - rei_ayanami 5y ago
    I wish I had insert keys on my x270.
cehrlich 5y ago
Some of the classic ThinkPad features just aren't relevant anymore today. For example hot-swappable batteries feel outdated to me in the age of USB-C PD power banks, as those are easier to recharge and not tied to a specific laptop model. Other features such as user-replaceable RAM and storage, and a great keyboard, are dearly missed and make me feel like we've gone in the wrong direction. I love my M1 MacBook Air, but not _because_ of the thinness and the things that have been sacrificed to achieve it.
- whatusername 5y ago
  The hot swappable CD drive / HD bay / extra battery was pretty awesome in my memory. But I agree I'd be unlikely to use it now. I haven't used a thinkpad in the last 8 or so years -- but I do miss the keyboard on some of my early models (eg: t40p)
- tsm 5y ago
  Hot-swappable batteries may be less relevant, but easily-user-replaceable batteries are sorely missed. I still do some work on a T60 (from 2006, I think) whose battery was obviously toast. It took $15 on eBay and ten seconds to pop the old one out and get a brand new one in. Meanwhile my wife's MBP's battery is also about dead and figuring out how to replace it is just enough effort that we haven't made it happen yet. While I'm here: other features I miss include the Thinklight, literally everything about the keyboard (layout, not being chiclet, key depth), dedicated trackpad buttons, the lid latch, …
  - paulmd 5y ago
    aftermarket batteries are AWFUL though, I played that game with my Thinkpad for a number of years before sucking it up and buying an OEM replacement. I was lucky to get six months out of an aftermarket battery and sometimes they were out of balance and dying within a matter of weeks. And once the OEM supply is truly gone (or aged out of existence) you're done anyway, unless you crack open the pack and replace the cells yourself. The way you replace a MBP battery is you take it to apple and have them do it for you. It makes absolutely no sense to pay to have it cracked open and serviced and then put a $30 ebay shit battery in it that will fail in 3 months - which if you're not going to an apple service center, is probably what you're getting. $200 isn't cheap but a genuine lenovo OEM battery (one which even still may have been sitting on a shelf for years and the cells are no longer at their best) will cost you about $125 from a legitimate source. $200 for a fresh battery with installation isn't really all that bad. For something with a 3-5 year lifespan, that's just the cost of using the device, same as a phone. I like serviceable devices too, and I think the parts should have to be made available to the market, but batteries and screens are two areas where I "get it" in terms of the protectionism around parts supply. There's a huge difference between the OEM and the aftermarket parts in these areas, and customers are going to want to know why YOUR device is draining THEIR battery in 30 minutes all of a sudden. Don't you know they just had the battery replaced last month!? It's YOUR fault! Regardless of whether it actually is, you've got a lot of extra service work and a lot of upset customers. Louis Rossman is a cool guy and I'm sure he personally is careful to only use legitimate parts (or at least be upfront that it's not an OEM part) but he's only presenting his half of the story there.
MayeulC 5y ago
Regarding the micro SD card reader, is that really a micro SD card slot? I think it's more likely a SIM card slot. Lenovo has included these for quite some time (under the battery in the T460, for instance). That's not something you change every day, so needing a pin to open it makes sense (plus, it prevents against theft somewhat). Also, a lot of modems do not like you removing it while they are powered on, so having the lid prevent its opening sounds like a feature.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ylyn 5y ago
  Apparently Lenovo has now made this a combination microSD and SIM card slot. Pretty ridiculous.
  - snsr 5y ago
    I thought this was sarcasm but it’s true! Amazing design and not in a good way.
  - MayeulC 5y ago
    Well, maybe that could be used with it: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001054046112.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001054046112.html (basically a flex cable to allow plugging the sd card outside. It's easier to find the opposite: an external connector for the SIM card, and you leave the SD card in: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003822185179.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003822185179.html These are often used on phones to use both two SIM card and one SD card on phones that have combo trays... Speak about usability :/
- Brian_K_White 5y ago
  My 5th or 6th gen X1 Carbon has a microsd tray just like that in that same spot. I actually use it so I know it definitely is microsd. The utterly inconvenient access makes me think it must not have been intended for frequent swapping. IE, it's probably not there to support photographers or drone pilots or any other activity that involves frequently swapping cards, and so it's not quite right to criticise it for being terrible at that. About like complaining that the trackpoint is terrible for CAD. I have no idea what it's intended function IS though either. I just put a big card in there just because I could, and used it as shared space that both linux and widows could both access. It wasn't necessary nor the best way to do that. That can't be what it was meant for either.
traspler 5y ago
Nice, just last week I got my x200 out of the closet. Now I have to replace the CMOS battery and probably repaste the CPU to get it back into a somewhat working condition, it seems like my SSD died as well in the meantime. It's always been my "oh shit I need a linux laptop to fix my network" laptop, really handy :)
- justsomehnguy 5y ago
  I still have X301 somewhere. I think this is probably the last machine in the house with a working DVD drive. Funny enough Windows 10 on it runs just fine while CentOS is slow as molasses. On SSD. Go figure.
mcv 5y ago
I'm not a long-time Thinkpad user at all; but used a 2011 Macbook before I bought my X1 Extreme g2 a few years ago. Mostly because I've heard so many people rave about the excellent build quality of Thinkpads. After reading the article, I want to share some of my experiences: By far the biggest advantage of Thinkpads, not mentioned at all in this article, is their spill-resistant keyboards. When I just had my X1E, I accidentally spilled an entire mug on tea over it. I turned it off, watched the tea spill out of the bottom, let it rest for a while just to be on the safe side, opened it the next day to check it and dry it off, and when I turned it on, everything worked fine as if nothing had happened. I suspect I could just have continued working with the tea in the keyboard, but I'm not taking that risk. A kid once spilled lemonade over my Macbook, and that was an expensive new motherboard. The battery life of my X1E is absolutely terrible. There are probably good reasons for that: it's a very powerful laptop in a very thin body, so little room for battery, lots of power, which also needs to be cooled. And on top of that, I've got a 4K OLED screen that probably eats a ton of power. 4K on a laptop is a mistake. Too much power in a thin laptop is also a mistake; it's either noisy, overheats, or throttles. My battery life really seems to be just 2 hours. I can take it places, but I have to plug it in if I want to do anything at all. About screens, the article says: > However, 1920×1080 of their recent 13-inch display model yields a lousy 170 PPI. It’s enough for me, but it is just an average offering even for 2020 when it was released. What’s terrible about this is that Lenovo does not offer better options. I don't know about 13 inch models, but Lenovo definitely does offer much higher resolution for the 15" X1E. But 4K is way overkill. For 13 inch, HD should be plenty. My biggest frustration with my X1E, however, is my laggy mouse. I think it's tied to the hybrid graphics (it can switch between builtin graphics and an nVidia GPU, and is supposed to do so cleverly, though I question that). Screen sometimes (but rarely) flickers rapidly between cooler bluish whites and warmer reddish whites. Switching graphics modes is done automatically and turns my screen black for a second. It does this when I plug/unplug power, for example. Lenovo's onsite support has already replaced the motherboard for this, but that didn't fix it. The mic is also often too quiet, but I think that's Windows. I keep finding weird mic settings in Windows (that are always hard to find) that keep turning down my mic to 20% or so for no good reason. Windows 10 mic support clearly sucks and should be much easier to find.
- exceptione 5y ago
luciusdomitius 5y ago
It was my second decade and definitely worse then the first one. They went from being able to use those machines long after the three-year cycle to them barely lasting those 3 years. The cherry on top was me not being able to replace a faulty keybord due to the zif connector breaking on a light touch. This is not entirelly lenovo's fault though - the latest T-series are eyeing 1 kg and with the laws of physics not having changed, it is impossible to deliver the same sturdiness. My next one is going to be a P-series. Let's hope it still has some quality.
- michaelerule 5y ago
  I've been working on a P50 since 2016; It is holding up. Flaws: - There is cosmetic degradation - The laptop is gradually losing hassle-free hardware support from the latest popular Linux distributions. (Trackpoint crashes randomly in Ubuntu; Sleep/power management has never worked properly). - I had to replace the keyboard after 3 years (the keys mechanically wore out and became loose). I had difficulty finding new replacement keyboards recently (although this is more an indictment of the UK's trade situation). - The buttons on the main touchpad are slowly failing; Near as I can tell it isn't possible to replace these without replacing the entire "top case". I use an external mouse to slow the decline.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    > The laptop is gradually losing hassle-free hardware support from the latest popular Linux distributions. That's disappointing. How well do Debian and Fedora hold up from that POV? Even if support has also regressed there, those are probably the distributions where tracing and reporting that regression would be easiest.
- geenew 5y ago
  Fwiw I’ve used a P50s and dislike the keyboard and track point greatly. The keyboard isn’t as stiff, and the track point feels imprecise. There is much more flex in the frame than older (t450, t500, x61) thinkpads that I’ve used, as well. This is only one datapoint, though, and that particular machine was a hand me down that could have been a lemon. I’m much happier with the t450.
guilhas 5y ago
I was quite happy with the x230, but the x270 just couldn't take it. The keyboard key press would click but not type, unless you press harder
asddubs 5y ago
I recently bought an E14, and it still does have an ethernet port. I've been happy with it, although I'm not too fussy about the keyboard compared to the old ones. >Keeping something as it is may not seem such a significant achievement. Still, under marketers' pressure backed by various polls and data (I imagine), Lenovo kept the signature part of the ThinkPad line. And I celebrated this decision of theirs with every model they released over these years. I am also very glad they kept the trackpoint, although I never use it, because I love having physical mouse buttons, and especially a middle mouse button for opening new tabs, which I use constantly (despite more and more fancy SPAs thinking that opening things in a new tab is not a necessary functionality for a website to have). I hate tap-to-click and drag and drop operations are also just a million times nicer with physical buttons
spaniard89277 5y ago
I've tried many times to get something else, but I stick with thinkpads because they're easy to service, and the trackpoint. The trackpoint is a big deal for me.
- hughrr 5y ago
  The more recent ones without the battery slots are pretty horrendous to service. They are a complete mishmash of absolutely standard laptop design the same as all the other vendors. Screws yes, but then a layer of fragile clips on the chassis. Then tape. Lots of tape. I’m not a fan. The best part of the thinkpads is the sheer amount of corporate corpses on the market which keeps the parts available and cheap.
  - spaniard89277 5y ago
    I still have a x260, but yes, I believe that's the trend. If frame.work manages to get a decent keyboard with trackpoint, I'm probably in. I don't know about the build quality yet.
    - Fnoord 5y ago
      I went from a ThinkPad (T61) to MBP and have used these ever since (except I bought a second hand T61 a couple of years ago, still liked the trackpoint but hardware too slow and 32 bit). The Apple Magic Trackpad 2 (not the big one though it might also be great) is an amazing trackpad (on macOS). It made me not miss the trackpoint (which is very useful given its size, indeed). If frame.work's touchpad comes close to it, it'd be my main concern for non-Macbook laptops.
      - spaniard89277 5y ago
        I travel semi frequently with my laptop by Train, and use it often in outdoors. I can use a trackpad, but honestly the trackpoint is a bless in such situations. It's way more smooth experience, even though that trackpoint has its buggy stuff. The times I tried other laptops it felt so much different and difficult, I carried a wireless mini-mouse for that.
cardanome 5y ago
I wish there would still be a left company making laptops for professionals. I would throw decent money to anyone not subscribing to the current form over function trend. I want thick, sturdy, long battery live, proper palm rest, good old LAN port. Is that too much to ask for a modern laptop?
- hughrr 5y ago
  Have a look at the Fujitsu Lifebook series. I’ll stick with my MBA though.
- illegalmemory 5y ago
  I am also looking for a similar robust laptop with Lan Port, headphone jack, good battery life and decently competitive CPU. I have been using multiple Macbooks from past 10-12 years and have seen the machine degrade over time both in term of software and hardware (with the exception of latest M1 series)
  - zzt123 5y ago
    What makes the lan port so critical that the M1 max macs are out of the question despite their surpassing performance in your other listed metrics?
- walterbell 5y ago
  Framework's modular laptop has been well received. They are working on a LAN module, https://community.frame.work/t/what-about-an-rj45-ethernet-port/3853 https://community.frame.work/t/what-about-an-rj45-ethernet-p... & https://frame.work https://frame.work Another option is to upgrade the motherboard and/or LCD in an older Thinkpad chassis. Right-to-repair legislation is slowly progressing in the US.
  - DoingIsLearning 5y ago
    The Framework ticks many boxes for me but still no matte option for displays. Glossy screens literally give me headaches, they only work in pitch dark ambient light.
bodge5000 5y ago
> Most of the ThinkPads' unique features, as I’ve realized upon writing this article, are long gone. I was always under the impression that Thinkpad fans specifically sought out the older laptops (obviously people do buy the newer ones, but people who are specifically fans of Thinkpads rather than it just being another laptop). I know thats certainly the case for me. I never even considered that someone who considers themselves a thinkpad fan, or even collector, would rush out to buy the latest one.
LoveMortuus 5y ago
Is it just me, or did old laptops have better keyboards that the new ones have today? My first laptop was Acer Aspire One (this one [0]). I still have it and I still use it, it's currently running Debian with Xfce. And the keyboard is still the best I've ever used, I genuinely prefer this keyboard over any desktop keyboards that I've tried and I've tried many mechanical including Cherry Brown switches. I get that the very low profile keyboards on modern laptops look nice, but I personally don't use the keyboard for its looks. Not to mention that my cat stepped on the "Enter" key of one of the newer laptops (Acer CB3-431) and she broke the butterfly shaped keycap stabilisation thingy making the button feel very inconsistent. I can't the replacement for just the bit that broke, I have to buy an entire new keyboard for it (~55€). The cat wasn't fat and she has walked over pretty much every keyboard that I've used, but that was the first one that broke... It is this line of thinking that I personally think is the reason why a good number of people like and still use ThinkPads today. [0] https://www.globalmediapro.com/dp/A25LT9/Acer-Aspire-One-AOA-150-Notebook/ https://www.globalmediapro.com/dp/A25LT9/Acer-Aspire-One-AOA...
- toyg 5y ago
  It's not just looks - newer keys likely use less plastic, because the market is inevitably obsessed with cost-shaving. Less plastic -> increased fragility -> more faults.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    The market is even more obsessed with shaving thickness, and the keyboard must typically sit above the mainboard, heatsinks, speakers etc. which leads to ultra-thin designs for that part. There's no way to make that properly ergonomic, the best you can do is let users cope with a "low travel" design that still provides some feedback to the fingers.
  - Joeri 5y ago
    I had a 2015 thinkpad, and even on that model the keycaps were so thin that two keys split in half due to normal use after 5 years. They were so thin that I couldn’t glue them together, and lenovo as it turns out will not sell you replacement keycaps, only replacement keyboards. Luckily there are third parties which sell the keycaps.
ho_schi 5y ago
With Linux 5.17 S0ix maybe works: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/Linux-S0ix-support-on-AMD-platforms/m-p/5098254?page=1 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/Linux-S... With Linux 5.17 AMD should provided also something similar to pstate, which should improve the things further: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=AMD-P-State-Linux-5.17 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=AMD-P-St... But Lenovo is still struggling: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Lenovo-AMD-PP-Not-Working https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Lenovo-A... I love ThinkPads. We've four in the family. Reasons: * Haptic feedback of keyboard * TrackPoint * Maintenance Manual and spare part available for at least five years (ten would be better) * Linux Support and Certification Sadly the blog reflects some of my findings, I'm using myself an X220 with Linux. I want to buy a new one but Lenovo makes it hard. The old seven row keyboard has a better layout, RJ45 is available, a nice palmrest, the battery is replaceable and the main-memory not soldered. Right when four core CPUs where available, Lenovo decided to remove the card-slot on the side and the RJ45. Luckily there are some improvements, they put a gap between [HOME, END, INSERT, DELETE] on the six row keyboard, X13 Gen2 finally provides a 16:10 display again (Wohoo!) and it is more sturdy then the X220. And finally decent AMD-Models are available. Lenovo seems to follow the bad industry pratices from other manufacturers instead of looking closely why ThinkPads are superior. Internal batteries, solder main-memory, awkwardly placed card-slots, missing RJ45 are problems. They keyboard is still the top of the industry and more comfortable than many desktop keyboards, because of the precise haptic feedback and concave shaped key-caps. The substandard keyboard from Apple on the other side does provides only flat (cheap?) key-caps, no TrackPoint and has a lot of longstanding quality issues. I'm also happily using and ThinkPad T14 Gen 1 AMD here with Linux. But from systems certificed for usage with Linux I expect more. I therefore also blame the lax requirements of Red Had and Lenovo. IBM (Red Hat), how about enforcing actual good support by Lenovo? I'm aware that all of that awkward, specially patched drivers on Windows are actually workarounds. And Microsoft enforce the sticker/label program. Maybe the complete industry should question there quality standards. I think most of power-management shall not be the duty of the operating-system but the firmware. Broken ACPI-Tables should thing of the past. I've some Lenovo representative is reading. Most customers wont' tell you why the bought your product. But in long term the will notice the things. The will buy again if it was good. They won't tell you "keyboard has feature x" and "card-slot is placed nicely", they will just like it or not. And the server stats of ThinkVantage will most of the time not tell you anything about the Linux-Users. Most of the time not even for Windows within company networks. It is quality what make a company running for decades and not hoping on the the next industry trend.
smoyer 5y ago
We've got four X1 Carbon's in our house - the oldest is a gen2 and the latest is a gen 9. They're all amazing but share the design quirk changes noted in by the OP. My biggest issue remains that the keyboard layouts are slightly different.
Loic 5y ago
Allowing myself a slightly off-topic question: For the people having old Thinkpads (X220 for example), where do you buy replacement batteries? Are you buying many from different providers hoping to land one good in the pack? How can you have a kind of minimal confidence that it will not be a security hazard?
- MisterSandman 5y ago
  I wonder the same thing, with the added asterisk of "...in Canada?" I think the answer is that many don't, including me. I don't really need to use my laptop on the go as much, so I just carry around that giant ass power brick.
- spaniard89277 5y ago
  GreenCell and Luxnote, but I'm in the EU.
  - amiga-workbench 5y ago
    I can absolutely vouch for GreenCell, they've kept my X201's going for years, and they're not naff reconditioned cells inside.
    - Loic 5y ago
      Thanks a lot both of you for recommending GreenCell. I just ordered a new battery for my X220 :-)
- paulmd 5y ago
  Lenovo is quite good at supporting their products, as manufacturers go, so you might still be able to find an OEM pack that is not too stale. Past that, I think the next best answer is you crack open the pack and you replace the cells yourself. The aftermarket packs are total garbage.
- NGRhodes 5y ago
  I've had good luck with cheap generics (varying brand names, originating from China) from Amazon, now on my 5th battery with no issue.
jll29 5y ago
My favorite form factor ThinkPad was the small square x61 with the most amazing keyboard of any laptop I have every touched. My overall favorite was the x230, whereas the x240 was unusable due to an erratic touch pad (the cursor would jump around while typing code). Nowadays I use an X1 at home and a MacBook (M1) at work, and the Mac wins regarding weight, speed, interoperability (WiFi, sound), battery and raw computer power, but the x1 wins with respect to keyboard, Linux support. I think the MacBook makes the better travel companion but the x1 makes the better dev machine (Linux is a "less odd" UNIX than MacOS X, speaking of paths, command names etc. memorized from varies Unices over the years). I would be keen to try out the X1 Nano, but the 1st generation is too similar to my existing box to consider an upgrade. BTW, whatever happened to the "ThinkPad Classic"?
- ct0 5y ago
  There was a "reboot" by a modder called the x62. He brought he specs up to a more modern era and increased the resolution. I was lucky enough to hop on the pre-built line and snag one for a good price. Add it to you watchlist on ebay because sometimes someone will post one. https://www.notebookcheck.net/X62-Laptop-Review.211598.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/X62-Laptop-Review.211598.0.htm...
- major505 5y ago
  I never liked the Thinkpads touch, and for some reason if I'm running my x250 in windows it just stops working after a few minutes (runs fine in linux, so ok), but in the end, I hate the concept of a trackpad and always carry a wireless mouse with me.
- bouncing 5y ago
  By ThinkPad Classic, you mean, the ThinkPad 25 Retro Anniversary Edition? I think it was kind of popular, but for $2,000, it just wasn't very competitive even with other ThinkPads. You were essentially paying a premium for a 7-row keyboard.
- p_l 5y ago
  If you mean the anniversary model, aka T25, it was T470 with "large delete" keyboard attached and configured in EC, and was done as one off anniversary model. No future plans for "classic" appear to be on the roadmap.
mrslave 5y ago
Had a 220. Looooved it. It probably even had the substandard screen. But my X1 Carbon Gen4 (I don't upgrade too often) was terrible. I never thought I would be one to say this: it was probably the keyboard I disliked the most. Now rocking a Dell XPS 13 (7390) and it's great. The light keyboard is fine. I've tried colleagues Apples of varying styles and never like the keyboard or trackpad. (Included because I consider the Dell design to be superficially similar, or at least both are in contrast to the IBM/Lenovo nice keyboard philosophy of yesteryear). I hear more negative reports about more recent XPS 13s than mine but I'm still not going back to Lenovo.
hestefisk 5y ago
I have been using ThinkPads for 20+ years. By far, my favourite is the X23 (IBM, not Lenovo), such had a 4:3 display and an excellent keyboard with proper home/pg up/pg down/arrow keys. It was a wonderful machine.
5- 5y ago
the preference of older thinkpads is strong and common enough that there is even a cottage industry of custom motherboards with newer components made to fit older chassis, see e.g. https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ it looks like framework managed to do a fine macbook clone; what would it take them (or someone else) to clone thinkpad next?
- spaniard89277 5y ago
  I hope so. I think there's plenty of people waiting for that, including me. A modern x220? Good keyboard, trackpoint, decent screen with good outdoors brightness, backlit keyboard, and good linux compatibility? I'm just dreaming, I know.
blackaspen 5y ago
This is funny as I was just thinking to myself this morning, "My X13 is the worst Thinkpad I've ever owned". The S3/S5 issues aren't limited to Linux, they exist in Windows too. I've set my laptop to just hibernate whenever I close the display to get around the issue, though it's very annoying. I also made the mistake of optioning mine with the PrivacyGuard screen, but that's on me. I actually can't wait till I can justify upgrading. Performance is great on the "original" AMD one, 8 cores, 32GB of RAM!
fuzzy2 5y ago
I also have an X220. An X220 Tablet though. An all-around embarrassing device. Sure, the form factor was correct, but everything else was not. Should’ve just returned it. The keyboard is not firmly seated inside and bounces around, resulting in audible vibrations. When switching to tablet mode, TrackPoint no longer deactivates. The screen moves it, moving the cursor in turn. 3G card was mediocre at best. The pen digitizer does not work properly at screen edges no matter how much I calibrate. Add to this all the general ThinkPad problems like locked-down Wi-Fi card slots, mediocre battery life and fans that are running all the time. I’m not sorry at all I jumped ship back then. I still use the Late 2013 MacBook Pro now. It’s certainly not perfect but just so much better. But that’s just for me.
markus_zhang 5y ago
One major complaint (of mine) is the small size if the arrow keys. Macbook pro is even worse with up/down keys smaller than left/right. I don't know why but they all keep a huge right shift key that I never use. They should cut it to half and give more spaces to the arrow keys. Sadly the new Macbook pro keeps the design. I'm getting sick of hitting page up/down accidentally when navigating code.
- cassandratt 5y ago
  Pick up some Vim skills, your future self will thank you. Vim bindings are available in every editor worth using. You’ll never touch your arrows again.
- angulardragon03 5y ago
  I’d recommend you check again. Apple doesn’t sell a laptop without an inverse-T arrow key layout.
erwincoumans 5y ago
The battery drain while lid closed and the firmware brick issues are totally unacceptable. Also, it seems as if AMD based laptops in general have been crippled compared to Intel based ones. I wouldn't be surprised if Intel forces the laptop makers to cripple AMD based laptops, with the choice of discrete GPU, screen sizes, quality or resolution. I'm happy to move to ARM Macbook M1 Pro, leaving AMD and Intel behind.
- neogodless 5y ago
  This has been improving greatly. I never owned an AMD based laptop before 2020, but when Ryzen 4000 came out, I got excited. Then I waited... and waited. In that first year, discrete GPU maxed out at RTX 2060 while Intel laptops would get RTX 2080 (mobile, of course.) Screens were all 1080p while Intel laptops paired with 4K, and they were often lower refresh rate (i.e. the 240Hz gaming ones were all Intel). Brightness was often 250-300 nit with any AMD laptop, but Intel offered some with 500 nits. Keyboards were lucky to be backlit, let alone per-key RGB! Those were some of the most recognizable differences (specific to my shopping), but others were here and there. In 2021, things shifted. The highest end gaming laptops were often available with the AMD CPU (APU), with 300Hz screens, higher brightness, etc. Intel still makes Thunderbolt an effective Intel-exclusive, even though it's technically feasible on AMD laptops. But laptop OEMs have started taking AMD much more seriously in the past couple of years. (Eventually I got a Lenovo Legion 5 - just over $1k with a Ryzen 4800H, 16GB, 512GB, 144Hz 300-nit 1080p screen, RTX 2060 6GB. Of course the options are a lot higher end now, but also a lot more expensive!)
ajit283 5y ago
Recently bought a X270 to take on travels and I love it. It's a breath of fresh air compared to the modern laptop world. All the ports you need, exchangeable battery and indestructible. Performance isn't great, but alright for light development work. My biggest gripe is probably the screen, that definitely shows its age.
cosmiccatnap 5y ago
tomcat27 5y ago
If it makes you feel any better, I am facing EXACTLY the same battery drain issue n macOS since last three years and found no solution or support from Apple who pretend the issue doesn’t exist in the first place despite forums shouting loud.
jimnotgym 5y ago
> The removal of the SD cards slot and Ethernet port has made recent ThinkPads a suboptimal choice for traveling photographers and some IT professionals. This might be true of the x series, but the T series still has an RJ45 and a microSD
rathboma 5y ago
Still working on an X1 carbon 5th. Screen isn't very good and the processor feels pretty slow. But it sleeps properly and the battery life is great (Ubuntu 20.04). Holding out until Framework gen 2 comes out, either with AMD or Intel 12th gen. Feels to me like framework is going to take all the Linux users. Wouldn't be surprised if they release a keyboard with a track point too. Hope they put attention into proper S3 sleep. What a massive industry regression in the last 5 years.
bigpeopleareold 5y ago
Every couple of weeks these come up. I am glad they do and eat them all up. :) Maybe the market research from posts like these are anecdotal, but it still screams that there is a market for old ThinkPad-style designs. Is this request too niche? I am not sure, but I would love to think that manufacturers should just see from these that good, old designs work well for people and people will want to buy those designs. I would and I would be excited over that.
- LNSY 5y ago
  https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2020-05-08-the-much-more-personal-computer.html https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2020-05-08-the-much-more-p... I've been thinking about getting this laptop. I am a little hesitant because it is far more of a project than other laptops, but it seems to give me that Thinkpad x200T vibe. I am a web dev, and I've been considering pairing this with an Apple Ipad as a sort of second screen / browser.
  - bigpeopleareold 5y ago
    I have had the same thought when it comes to the case where I will need something for the future. The price is not a surprise for the amount of production for this. I am personally waiting to see what comes of the SoM being worked on to support 16gb.
Besticle 5y ago
I brought a T450 and the screen hinge snapped off after 2 years literally a week after the warranty was up. I missed the heyday of IBM Thinkpads but the apparent blind brand loyalty and cult like following they have now is unneeded and allows Lenovo to get away with crazy things like 1368p screens is crazy.
eecc 5y ago
I bought a T14s to bridge the MacBook Pro gap before the M1. I expected more and am frankly looking forward to return to Apple, as soon as they sort out their supply-chain backlog. It could have been better: firmware issues (as mentioned in the article and other posts, power management is a joke), very poor Windows performance (UI lag during network streaming due to the NT kernel only hammering CORE0), embarrassing Linux desktop experience (after so many years it's still such a massive train-wreck). I just don't have the time to deal with all this, all while attempting to get some work done.
post_break 5y ago
I bet the screen protector on the X270 can be removed. I removed it on my X250 because of the stupid scratches. https://imgur.com/ZuK360I https://imgur.com/ZuK360I https://imgur.com/FNC1fhO https://imgur.com/FNC1fhO https://imgur.com/wbJZKxQ https://imgur.com/wbJZKxQ
dynamic_sausage 5y ago
Some of the issues in the article seem to have been caused by the push to make laptops smaller: internal battery, fewer ports. A natural solution would be to change the series you use to a larger one — e.g., go from X to T, etc. I owned T440s (note the "s" for slim version), but later switched to T490 exactly for this reason. The non-slim T490 is actually thinner than the T440s was, because of the miniaturization trend, and has all the right ports (alas, still no external battery). Absolutely no power, suspend, etc issues at all under Arch.
LeonM 5y ago
After reading a lot of praise on Thinkpads on HN, especially by Linux users, I decided to but a Lenovo X1-Extreme (gen 1) for work. Specs basically maxed out. Here is my experience with the X1E: # Business use & warranty: For business use, Lenovo offers on-site repair. Lenovo will come to you and repair or replace a broken device. At a reasonable cost (~300 eur) you can extend this to a 3 year contract. Compared to Apple (who have zero options for on-site repairs, and zero extended warranty options for small business) this is infinitely better for professional use. Regardless of how many 'pro' titles Apple slap on their products, you basically get 0 service from them, even if you pay. # Hardware: - Coil whine. So. Much. Coil whine :-( - Laptop comes with 2 M.2 slots, one occupied by the factory SSD. This allowed me to install a second SSD for a Linux/Windows dual boot. RAM is also user upgradable. - Fans are noisy and ramp-up is very aggressive, might be able to tweak this. - 4K display is gorgeous, though I am kind of bummed that there was no matte finish option when I ordered my gen 1 (matte OLED became available in gen 3). - Keyboard is really good. - Audio (speakers) are quite bad compared to a Macbook of any generation. - After first month of use, the display started showing signs of damage (not just dirty) by keyboard imprints, even with careful use. - Ethernet uses proprietary connector, you must buy a Lenovo dongle (though they are inexpensive IIRC) - Charger has proprietary connector, X1E cannot charge via USB-C # Linux support: - WiFi, webcam and function keys work out of the box. Fingerprint reader does not, but have not made any effort to use it. - Audio output switching often leaves driver for internal speakers in a weird state, causing a weird delayed noise/crackling effect during playback. - The (insanely expensive) Thunderbolt dock (AN40) is unreliable under Linux. Most notably when laptop goes into standby. Hot-plugging almost never works. Even after all the firmware updates (which require a windows only utility btw). With an external display attached (DP, via TB3 dock) and the laptop in stand-by, the dock starts emitting some stray interrupt that will eat 100% CPU, ramping the fans up to maximum. - The Linux ACPI driver is quite bad. Battery status is almost always 'unknown'. If battery status does display 'full', it usually reports $random percentage between 60 and 80%. Wake-up after stand-by has endless other problems. - USB ports (internal, or on TB dock) regularly become unresponsive after stand-by. May be related to ACPI issues. - The dual GPU (Intel + nVidia) situation remains a nightmare under Linux, though this is not Lenovos fault obviously. # Windows: - Lots and lots of bloatware out of the box - Laptop regularly wakes up from sleep while in my backpack, burning 100% of the battery of you don't notice it. - Otherwise works fine under Windows. # Conclusion So, concluding, my first-time experience is mediocre. Linux support isn't great, though the laptop mostly works as promised under Windows. The service and support of Lenovo is (in my experience) on-par with Dell, and light years ahead of Apple. Due to the praise for Lenovo here on HN, I had high hopes for proper Linux support, but that was disappointing. In 2019, when I bought the X1E, the offering by Apple was really bad, which made me look for other brand laptops. But if I was to buy a new laptop today, I'll probably go back to Apple. With M1 support shaping up (thanks Marcan!), it might even become a good Linux machine.
einpoklum 5y ago
> Until Lenovo sold me a lemon — ThinkPad X13 AMD. Lenovo has sold us lemons in the X series since they started fucking up their keyboards after the X220. The X230 is still usable, but - X240 and later - not really. The poster does note this fact, but still claims the thinning of the chassis over the years is a good thing... Wrong :-( This sentence: > it’s easy to argue that the X220’s design from the top picture is the least practical. is the opposite of the truth. For a decent keyboard you need key travel, and for key travel you need travel height. Now, could you save a bit of height by battery improvements or rearrangements? Or by display thinning? Sure, but the Lenovo killed the keyboard for an extra 6mm or so. > X270 ... just looks so much more pleasing to my eye Come on. Really? Are you a fashion model? > Proprietary charging port It's true that the switch to USB-C allows for more flexibility. However - I personally liked how the port was round, and thick, so you could very easily get your plug in without having to lean in and take a closer look. But can't really complain about that I suppose. > Touchpad This may be the most controversial take I have on Thinkpads, but personally, for me, this is mostly and annoyance and something I tap by mistake. And something which takes space away from the keyboard... I'm perfectly fine with my trackpoint.
stakkur 5y ago
>Most of the ThinkPads' unique features, as I’ve realized upon writing this article, are long gone. It’s painful to admit, but I came to the same conclusion for similar reasons. I’ve owned ThinkPads off and on since 2000, most recently an x280. I still have a rock solid T400 in my workshop, and a modded T440s (added trackpad buttons), but I’ve sold off all the rest and am now pondering whether to buy some version of the X1 Carbon. I've given up collecting old gems like the x230 because, despite all the wonderful features, the screen and battery just don't cut it for me anymore.
caditinpiscinam 5y ago
I tried out a new thinkpad recently. I had heard, here and on other sites, that they're the best laptops for running linux, but I experienced a number of issues when trying to run recent versions of ubuntu and pop os, including: - Hotkeys, like brightness adjustment, not working on some versions - Wifi not working (I found a driver on github that I wasn't able to get working) - Really short battery life, even after fiddling with sleep mode in the bios - Choppy touchpad controls I might have had better luck with an intel model (this one was AMD), or with a slightly older model that's had more time to be tested and supported, but it definitely wasn't the "just works" experience I was hoping for
synergy20 5y ago
Lenovo X1 Carbon is my favorite with Ethernet and Wifi and 14" screen, super light and battery lasts, good for travel and local development.
- petepete 5y ago
  Mine too. Everything just worked perfectly with Fedora out of the box. I got the 4k one which in retrospect I'd switch for the 1440p (for battery life), but either way it's a pleasure to use.
jcun4128 5y ago
Wow that intro meme ha. I used to obsess over the Carbon X1 when it was new. I have a smaller Carbon now but man nice computers. I also like that I can take it apart pretty easily to replace stuff. The keyboard is nice too. Never got into the red mouse thing though.
ohazi 5y ago
The S3 / S0ix sleep state power consumption fiasco is completely unacceptable. I have two T480 laptops with usable S3 that I regularly put to sleep for a week. I will not be upgrading them until after I can confirm that this mess has been fixed. I no longer care whether blame lies with Lenovo or with Intel's reference platform. The product is so broken that it is fundamentally unfit for my use case.
buovjaga 5y ago
We unbricked a Lenovo T570 once by flashing a working BIOS into the EEPROM chip. It was a rather nervewracking experience. I wrote down the steps in this Arch wiki article: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T570 https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T570
smm11 5y ago
Oh, yeah? 365, and X1 Carbon.
robk 5y ago
The x210 is awesome if you want to get the old ThinkPad feel but modern processor https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/
dredmorbius 5y ago
For anyone who's not watched the Louis Rossman rant (2014) on how Lenovo screwed the pooch on Thinkapds, do. https://yewtu.be/watch?v=doEZMNXz1JY https://yewtu.be/watch?v=doEZMNXz1JY Caution: harsh language and harder truths. All completely justified. I'd love to know how this was received at Lenovo, because this should be part of every new hire's onboarding.
- l8rlump 5y ago
  Thanks for introducing me to invidious just now!
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    It's only a proxy in front of YT, but does seem to address several immediate issues with the service.
- TwoNineFive 5y ago
  The paid Lenovo shills DO NOT want you to watch this video. =)
fegu 5y ago
ThinkPadding for 22 years. From the A21p or A31p (I think that was my first, but it has been a while) to the Nano now. Thinkpads are not the same any longer. My nano spontaneously overheats and shuts down out of nowhere when Windows runs the built in antivirus scan for too long. I got the motherboard replaced but it did not fix the issue. But what else is out there if you need a stable solid workhorse? My only requirements these days is 16GB, 1TB and a beautiful display (waiting for affordable OLEDs).
Koshkin 5y ago
Running Slackware 15 on an old-ish Thinkpad. Everything just works. Life is good.
dynamohk 5y ago
Personally felt the quality go down. Had one around 2010 was great. Maybe should look into dells.
TwoNineFive 5y ago
Lenovo pays influencers to post dribble like this. It's an ad.

362 points by koiueo 5y ago

tiku 5y ago

Excellent memeing in the picture. +1

dm319 5y ago
oh dear just got it.

titzer 5y ago

I switched briefly to a Thinkpad from Macbook for about a year. It was all fine until the RAM started failing. No problem, just pop it open and find what kind of SIMMs it takes...oh, RAM soldered in. And now it's a brick.

koiueo 5y ago

ThinkPad fan reflecting on a decade of his loyalty to the brand

ulzeraj 5y ago

This guy Archs (btw).

koiueo 5y ago
transitioning to NixOS (btw) :)
- mkesper 5y ago
  If your last try with Debian was about 10 years ago, maybe give it another try? I find Debian stable exactly that: rock stable. Support for older HW is also great, offering enough Desktop choice.
  - kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
    Not OP, but for a desktop, the AUR makes every single other Linux distro objectively hard to use. Also dpkg is slow and breaks more than I would like. I should also mention I do in fact use Arch btw.
  - gkhartman 5y ago
    I'll second Debian. I toggled between Ubuntu and Fedora for 10 yrs. Too many dodgy updates on Fedora, too much "is that package a deb or a snap" on Ubuntu. After working in RHEL based companies for many years, I switched to Centos and fought the out of date packages (sometimes building stuff from source) until the IBM takeover. Debian has been a good middle ground with newish packages that I rarely have to fight to get my work done.
- zinxq 5y ago
  with Nix .. there is no "transition" .. only "do"

hughrr 5y ago

I’ve run at least one Thinkpad in parallel with a MacBook for the last 15 years. In 2020 I sold my last Thinkpad, an AMD T495s. The M1 MBA destroyed my tolerance for another Intel laptop entirely.

m_st 5y ago

Didn't read it all, but regarding the battery and sleep issue: I can totally relate to such issues with my Dell XPS 15 9550 (2015) and 9510 (2021). Windows has this setting "When I close the lid" which is set to "Sleep". In fact it should be renamed as "Drain the battery and heat the bag". Being a happy MacBook user since they were called PowerBook, I never ever had any such issue with an Apple laptop. Not even, when they were using the same Intel CPUs. Worse, some months ago I even found a Dell support forum post where they said, to not use sleep mode when putting your laptop away.

Robinxd 5y ago
Ironically, I have had the same experience with MacBook Pro 2017 model. It’s got some other funky bugs too, but it’s not my main driver either.
mcv 5y ago
I still don't understand how Windows could possibly have become so bad at sleeping. Both desktops and laptops have a tendency to wake up at weird times and then never go to sleep. This stuff used to work. What happened?
- hughrr 5y ago
  Microsoft replaced QA with telemetry.
- pizza234 5y ago
  This is possibly the so-called "Connected Standby" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InstantGo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InstantGo), an infamous Windows anti-feature. I believe, although I'm not 100% sure, that in addition to turning on the computer without the user consent, it also puts the machine in a strange state where it's neither on nor off. According to the spec: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InstantGo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InstantGo, it's allowed to suck up to 7.5% of battery every day. As a matter of fact, my Surface device would lose more than 5% every day, and I'd find odd periods of wakeup in the sleep log (when the machine was supposedly fully shutdown).

loser777 5y ago

A T420 was my daily driver through undergrad, and then collected dust during grad school when I was issued a Macbook. When I returned my Macbook I dusted it off and was surprised by how usable it was (and how usable and well-supported it was running Arch compared to debian in the early 2010s). I finally gave in and upgraded the memory (DDR3!) to 16 GiB recently, and am considering getting a third-party 9-cell battery, as my 9+ year old one has gotten long in the tooth (i3's battery "widget" reports ~70% fully charged). I dare say it's my most usable travel laptop outside of my work-issued Yoga, which it still trounces in terms of keyboard ergonomics. It absolutely dunks on the bargin-bin laptops I've tried out over the past few years, I think in part because of ergonomics but also because Arch on old (but well-supported) hardware feels snappier than Windows 10 on new (but low-cost) hardware.

NikolaNovak 5y ago
If you like t420 try the t420s. Same laptop but slimmer and makes it much more transportable. Still has ultra bay, great keyboard, and easy access to everything. I have 3 around the house for various family members and it works great :)
- zwog 5y ago
  I t420s fell out of my opened backpack a couple of days ago. Not the first time it fell, once I even stepped on it - but after the last drop the display has some problems and i have to push on a certain point to get it working, which made me put it to it's well deserved retirement.[*] In need of an quick alternative I bought a Dell XPS 13 9343. I like this a lot - it has a way nicer display, the form factor is just great for my needs, build quality is good and even the keyboard feels right (missing a trackpoint tho). Unfortunately it supports Microsoft's "Modern Standy", which is a fancy name for s2idle - which just doesn't work using Linux, at least I couldn't get it to work . When in s2idle it looses power and does not reliably wake up, in s3 it goes to sleep but needs a hard reset to wake up. Waiting for my t470s now, as far as I know the latest Thinkpad generation stat supports classic s3 sleep. *: Actually it lives on as a small NAS/Homeserver. It even packs three disks (M2 SSD, HDD in the HDD slot and an Ultrabay-HDD adpter).

odiroot 5y ago

The part about power usage is interesting. I work on a T14 AMD and yes, I had the annoying wake-ups when closing the lid. But this was fixed by the firmware upgrade. I cannot relate to battery drain when sleeping. I can leave the laptop asleep for 4+ days and it still retains enough battery to use it (maybe 20-30%).

GEBBL 5y ago

I still have a backup x220 that I run with 16GB ram to run various containers, vm images and other x86 workloads that I can’t with my M1 Mac. It’s an excellent low power second option.

kogepathic 5y ago

> My X13 AMD, for example, has a powerful 32-core AMD APU, 32GiB of RAM, and a superfast 1TiB NVMe SSD. The X13 does not have a 32-core APU. The highest spec available is the 4750U with 8C/16T. > By the way, the latest MacBook Pro comes with an Ethernet port. We loved the jokes about iDongle; how about ThinkDongle? The latest MacBook Pro does not come with an Ethernet port. It is however very annoying that Lenovo requires a proprietary dongle to use the built-in Ethernet controller. > The removal of the SD cards slot and Ethernet port has made recent ThinkPads a suboptimal choice for traveling photographers and some IT professionals. The removal of the SD card reader on the X13 AMD Gen 2 is bizarre, but they can and do still offer Ethernet via a dongle. > would you read about the update procedure after you’ve done multiple BIOS updates for the same machine already? Even if you would, would you pay much attention to the Notes section? Yes, but I'm probably weird because I like to know what the vendor fixed and whether the firmware update might remove features that I use (shakes fist at Dell). I own an X13 AMD Gen 2 (20XH), and I think it's a great laptop with some small caveats. Pro: - 1600p matte display looks amazing - proper support for S3, very low S3 power consumption - super quiet, I never hear the fan and the laptop is never uncomfortably hot (even doing heavy things like compiling buildroot) - amazing performance for a laptop (5850U) Con: - no SD card reader (seriously, why?) - proprietary dongle for Ethernet - Ethernet is only GigE - Came with MediaTek 7961 WiFi, which while supported by mainline Linux, the performance is trash (~30MBit on 802.11ac). Luckily it's only M.2 so you can replace it with something like the AX201

koiueo 5y ago
> The X13 does not have a 32-core APU. The highest spec available is the 4750U with 8C/16T. > The latest MacBook Pro does not come with an Ethernet port. Thank you for catching all this. Fixed. > - 1600p matte display looks amazing I agree, matte display is great. And as I said, I calibrated mine. > - proper support for S3, very low S3 power consumption Strange, I've seen reports on the Lenovo support forums that Gen 2 laptops are also susceptible to the battery drain in S3. Was it always like this? Or was it fixed with some firmware update?
- chrisseaton 5y ago

taubek 5y ago

For me T460 is still the king. I like my new T15, but I miss things like two batteries.

gonzo41 5y ago
Im on my t460 right now :) With Ubuntu I honestly don't see much drama. It kinda a bummer in some regards. It just keeps working so I have no good excuse after 5 years to get another laptop. I've broken it a few times dropping it. And being able to download the manual, order parts and then repair at home has been really nice. I hope lenovo understands that this is a big feature of thinkpads.
- taubek 5y ago
  I was also looking bor replacement, but I just couldn't justify it to myself. With 16 gigs of RAM and 512G SSD it works like a charm. I think that the fan will be the first thing that I'll need to replace...
tonyedgecombe 5y ago
My only complaint about the T460 is they have already discontinued replacement batteries. They are still available in the channel but it's hard to know whether you are getting the real thing or not.
- taubek 5y ago
  In my country Green Cell batteries are pretty popular as replacement batteries. I can see that they still have T460 batteries (https://greencell.global/en/search?controller=search&orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=t460 https://greencell.global/en/search?controller=search&orderby...).
karussell 5y ago
I still like my T460 too, especially because Ubuntu works completely flawlessly. Also as I was able to buy a warranty for over 5 years where they came in my office and replaced stuff without shipping and long waiting :) Had to use this once after a year when the mainboard broke (cpu freezed) Battery time is still ~6h (bought the extra large second battery and was ~12h initially) The keyboard + display are great (the display is now after >5 years a bit white in certain spots but nothing critical). The CPU speed isn't that great but ok. The sound is really really bad :)

WesolyKubeczek 5y ago

My X220 is like the grandpa’s axe. Over the decade that I have owned it, I have replaced everything. What I like the most about that design is that it’s easy to disassemble it to bits and reassemble it back non-destructively.

snemvalts 5y ago
The biggest build quality problem on it (and x230) is the top bar made of plastic, at the top of the back of the lid, for antennas. It's held so weakly that even a 10-20cm drop will break the plastic clips.
- WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
  Given it's housing the antennas, there's not much choice of what it can be made of. Cannot be very heavy too, so laptop wouldn't topple.
  - snemvalts 5y ago
    Probably storing them in near plastic of the screen frame. Newer thinkpads (x270 etc) don't have it. Nor do macbooks.
Phenix88be 5y ago
Did you replace the screen somehow ? I have a X220, replaced a lot of stuff, but I barely use it today because the 1366x768 screen is not enough anymore... At least a 1080p display is the bare minimum today.
- ct0 5y ago
  I use a dock to add a secondary display that goes directly above the laptop screen.
- post_break 5y ago
  You can get a PEPE board and upgrade to a 1080p display. It's not super easy to solder on or source the screen though.

rei_ayanami 5y ago

I love my x270.

amiga-workbench 5y ago
Same, I've been getting on really well with mine after upgrading from an X201T last year. I do think this is going to be my last ThinkPad though, user-replicable RAM has been jettisoned on all subsequent X series machines, and the loss of the SD card reader is another kick in the teeth. The new keyboard layout is garbage too, I miss the 7 row keyboard a lot. At the very least, I just wish I had my page back/forward keys back.
- rei_ayanami 5y ago
  I wish I had insert keys on my x270.

cehrlich 5y ago

Some of the classic ThinkPad features just aren't relevant anymore today. For example hot-swappable batteries feel outdated to me in the age of USB-C PD power banks, as those are easier to recharge and not tied to a specific laptop model. Other features such as user-replaceable RAM and storage, and a great keyboard, are dearly missed and make me feel like we've gone in the wrong direction. I love my M1 MacBook Air, but not _because_ of the thinness and the things that have been sacrificed to achieve it.

whatusername 5y ago
The hot swappable CD drive / HD bay / extra battery was pretty awesome in my memory. But I agree I'd be unlikely to use it now. I haven't used a thinkpad in the last 8 or so years -- but I do miss the keyboard on some of my early models (eg: t40p)
tsm 5y ago
Hot-swappable batteries may be less relevant, but easily-user-replaceable batteries are sorely missed. I still do some work on a T60 (from 2006, I think) whose battery was obviously toast. It took $15 on eBay and ten seconds to pop the old one out and get a brand new one in. Meanwhile my wife's MBP's battery is also about dead and figuring out how to replace it is just enough effort that we haven't made it happen yet. While I'm here: other features I miss include the Thinklight, literally everything about the keyboard (layout, not being chiclet, key depth), dedicated trackpad buttons, the lid latch, …
- paulmd 5y ago
  aftermarket batteries are AWFUL though, I played that game with my Thinkpad for a number of years before sucking it up and buying an OEM replacement. I was lucky to get six months out of an aftermarket battery and sometimes they were out of balance and dying within a matter of weeks. And once the OEM supply is truly gone (or aged out of existence) you're done anyway, unless you crack open the pack and replace the cells yourself. The way you replace a MBP battery is you take it to apple and have them do it for you. It makes absolutely no sense to pay to have it cracked open and serviced and then put a $30 ebay shit battery in it that will fail in 3 months - which if you're not going to an apple service center, is probably what you're getting. $200 isn't cheap but a genuine lenovo OEM battery (one which even still may have been sitting on a shelf for years and the cells are no longer at their best) will cost you about $125 from a legitimate source. $200 for a fresh battery with installation isn't really all that bad. For something with a 3-5 year lifespan, that's just the cost of using the device, same as a phone. I like serviceable devices too, and I think the parts should have to be made available to the market, but batteries and screens are two areas where I "get it" in terms of the protectionism around parts supply. There's a huge difference between the OEM and the aftermarket parts in these areas, and customers are going to want to know why YOUR device is draining THEIR battery in 30 minutes all of a sudden. Don't you know they just had the battery replaced last month!? It's YOUR fault! Regardless of whether it actually is, you've got a lot of extra service work and a lot of upset customers. Louis Rossman is a cool guy and I'm sure he personally is careful to only use legitimate parts (or at least be upfront that it's not an OEM part) but he's only presenting his half of the story there.

MayeulC 5y ago

Regarding the micro SD card reader, is that really a micro SD card slot? I think it's more likely a SIM card slot. Lenovo has included these for quite some time (under the battery in the T460, for instance). That's not something you change every day, so needing a pin to open it makes sense (plus, it prevents against theft somewhat). Also, a lot of modems do not like you removing it while they are powered on, so having the lid prevent its opening sounds like a feature.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ylyn 5y ago
Apparently Lenovo has now made this a combination microSD and SIM card slot. Pretty ridiculous.
- snsr 5y ago
  I thought this was sarcasm but it’s true! Amazing design and not in a good way.
- MayeulC 5y ago
  Well, maybe that could be used with it: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001054046112.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001054046112.html (basically a flex cable to allow plugging the sd card outside. It's easier to find the opposite: an external connector for the SIM card, and you leave the SD card in: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003822185179.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003822185179.html These are often used on phones to use both two SIM card and one SD card on phones that have combo trays... Speak about usability :/
Brian_K_White 5y ago
My 5th or 6th gen X1 Carbon has a microsd tray just like that in that same spot. I actually use it so I know it definitely is microsd. The utterly inconvenient access makes me think it must not have been intended for frequent swapping. IE, it's probably not there to support photographers or drone pilots or any other activity that involves frequently swapping cards, and so it's not quite right to criticise it for being terrible at that. About like complaining that the trackpoint is terrible for CAD. I have no idea what it's intended function IS though either. I just put a big card in there just because I could, and used it as shared space that both linux and widows could both access. It wasn't necessary nor the best way to do that. That can't be what it was meant for either.

traspler 5y ago

Nice, just last week I got my x200 out of the closet. Now I have to replace the CMOS battery and probably repaste the CPU to get it back into a somewhat working condition, it seems like my SSD died as well in the meantime. It's always been my "oh shit I need a linux laptop to fix my network" laptop, really handy :)

justsomehnguy 5y ago
I still have X301 somewhere. I think this is probably the last machine in the house with a working DVD drive. Funny enough Windows 10 on it runs just fine while CentOS is slow as molasses. On SSD. Go figure.

mcv 5y ago

I'm not a long-time Thinkpad user at all; but used a 2011 Macbook before I bought my X1 Extreme g2 a few years ago. Mostly because I've heard so many people rave about the excellent build quality of Thinkpads. After reading the article, I want to share some of my experiences: By far the biggest advantage of Thinkpads, not mentioned at all in this article, is their spill-resistant keyboards. When I just had my X1E, I accidentally spilled an entire mug on tea over it. I turned it off, watched the tea spill out of the bottom, let it rest for a while just to be on the safe side, opened it the next day to check it and dry it off, and when I turned it on, everything worked fine as if nothing had happened. I suspect I could just have continued working with the tea in the keyboard, but I'm not taking that risk. A kid once spilled lemonade over my Macbook, and that was an expensive new motherboard. The battery life of my X1E is absolutely terrible. There are probably good reasons for that: it's a very powerful laptop in a very thin body, so little room for battery, lots of power, which also needs to be cooled. And on top of that, I've got a 4K OLED screen that probably eats a ton of power. 4K on a laptop is a mistake. Too much power in a thin laptop is also a mistake; it's either noisy, overheats, or throttles. My battery life really seems to be just 2 hours. I can take it places, but I have to plug it in if I want to do anything at all. About screens, the article says: > However, 1920×1080 of their recent 13-inch display model yields a lousy 170 PPI. It’s enough for me, but it is just an average offering even for 2020 when it was released. What’s terrible about this is that Lenovo does not offer better options. I don't know about 13 inch models, but Lenovo definitely does offer much higher resolution for the 15" X1E. But 4K is way overkill. For 13 inch, HD should be plenty. My biggest frustration with my X1E, however, is my laggy mouse. I think it's tied to the hybrid graphics (it can switch between builtin graphics and an nVidia GPU, and is supposed to do so cleverly, though I question that). Screen sometimes (but rarely) flickers rapidly between cooler bluish whites and warmer reddish whites. Switching graphics modes is done automatically and turns my screen black for a second. It does this when I plug/unplug power, for example. Lenovo's onsite support has already replaced the motherboard for this, but that didn't fix it. The mic is also often too quiet, but I think that's Windows. I keep finding weird mic settings in Windows (that are always hard to find) that keep turning down my mic to 20% or so for no good reason. Windows 10 mic support clearly sucks and should be much easier to find.

exceptione 5y ago

luciusdomitius 5y ago

It was my second decade and definitely worse then the first one. They went from being able to use those machines long after the three-year cycle to them barely lasting those 3 years. The cherry on top was me not being able to replace a faulty keybord due to the zif connector breaking on a light touch. This is not entirelly lenovo's fault though - the latest T-series are eyeing 1 kg and with the laws of physics not having changed, it is impossible to deliver the same sturdiness. My next one is going to be a P-series. Let's hope it still has some quality.

michaelerule 5y ago
I've been working on a P50 since 2016; It is holding up. Flaws: - There is cosmetic degradation - The laptop is gradually losing hassle-free hardware support from the latest popular Linux distributions. (Trackpoint crashes randomly in Ubuntu; Sleep/power management has never worked properly). - I had to replace the keyboard after 3 years (the keys mechanically wore out and became loose). I had difficulty finding new replacement keyboards recently (although this is more an indictment of the UK's trade situation). - The buttons on the main touchpad are slowly failing; Near as I can tell it isn't possible to replace these without replacing the entire "top case". I use an external mouse to slow the decline.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > The laptop is gradually losing hassle-free hardware support from the latest popular Linux distributions. That's disappointing. How well do Debian and Fedora hold up from that POV? Even if support has also regressed there, those are probably the distributions where tracing and reporting that regression would be easiest.
geenew 5y ago
Fwiw I’ve used a P50s and dislike the keyboard and track point greatly. The keyboard isn’t as stiff, and the track point feels imprecise. There is much more flex in the frame than older (t450, t500, x61) thinkpads that I’ve used, as well. This is only one datapoint, though, and that particular machine was a hand me down that could have been a lemon. I’m much happier with the t450.

guilhas 5y ago

I was quite happy with the x230, but the x270 just couldn't take it. The keyboard key press would click but not type, unless you press harder

asddubs 5y ago

I recently bought an E14, and it still does have an ethernet port. I've been happy with it, although I'm not too fussy about the keyboard compared to the old ones. >Keeping something as it is may not seem such a significant achievement. Still, under marketers' pressure backed by various polls and data (I imagine), Lenovo kept the signature part of the ThinkPad line. And I celebrated this decision of theirs with every model they released over these years. I am also very glad they kept the trackpoint, although I never use it, because I love having physical mouse buttons, and especially a middle mouse button for opening new tabs, which I use constantly (despite more and more fancy SPAs thinking that opening things in a new tab is not a necessary functionality for a website to have). I hate tap-to-click and drag and drop operations are also just a million times nicer with physical buttons

spaniard89277 5y ago

I've tried many times to get something else, but I stick with thinkpads because they're easy to service, and the trackpoint. The trackpoint is a big deal for me.

hughrr 5y ago
The more recent ones without the battery slots are pretty horrendous to service. They are a complete mishmash of absolutely standard laptop design the same as all the other vendors. Screws yes, but then a layer of fragile clips on the chassis. Then tape. Lots of tape. I’m not a fan. The best part of the thinkpads is the sheer amount of corporate corpses on the market which keeps the parts available and cheap.
- spaniard89277 5y ago
  I still have a x260, but yes, I believe that's the trend. If frame.work manages to get a decent keyboard with trackpoint, I'm probably in. I don't know about the build quality yet.
  - Fnoord 5y ago
    I went from a ThinkPad (T61) to MBP and have used these ever since (except I bought a second hand T61 a couple of years ago, still liked the trackpoint but hardware too slow and 32 bit). The Apple Magic Trackpad 2 (not the big one though it might also be great) is an amazing trackpad (on macOS). It made me not miss the trackpoint (which is very useful given its size, indeed). If frame.work's touchpad comes close to it, it'd be my main concern for non-Macbook laptops.
    - spaniard89277 5y ago
      I travel semi frequently with my laptop by Train, and use it often in outdoors. I can use a trackpad, but honestly the trackpoint is a bless in such situations. It's way more smooth experience, even though that trackpoint has its buggy stuff. The times I tried other laptops it felt so much different and difficult, I carried a wireless mini-mouse for that.

cardanome 5y ago

I wish there would still be a left company making laptops for professionals. I would throw decent money to anyone not subscribing to the current form over function trend. I want thick, sturdy, long battery live, proper palm rest, good old LAN port. Is that too much to ask for a modern laptop?

hughrr 5y ago
Have a look at the Fujitsu Lifebook series. I’ll stick with my MBA though.
illegalmemory 5y ago
I am also looking for a similar robust laptop with Lan Port, headphone jack, good battery life and decently competitive CPU. I have been using multiple Macbooks from past 10-12 years and have seen the machine degrade over time both in term of software and hardware (with the exception of latest M1 series)
- zzt123 5y ago
  What makes the lan port so critical that the M1 max macs are out of the question despite their surpassing performance in your other listed metrics?
walterbell 5y ago
Framework's modular laptop has been well received. They are working on a LAN module, https://community.frame.work/t/what-about-an-rj45-ethernet-port/3853 https://community.frame.work/t/what-about-an-rj45-ethernet-p... & https://frame.work https://frame.work Another option is to upgrade the motherboard and/or LCD in an older Thinkpad chassis. Right-to-repair legislation is slowly progressing in the US.
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  The Framework ticks many boxes for me but still no matte option for displays. Glossy screens literally give me headaches, they only work in pitch dark ambient light.

bodge5000 5y ago

> Most of the ThinkPads' unique features, as I’ve realized upon writing this article, are long gone. I was always under the impression that Thinkpad fans specifically sought out the older laptops (obviously people do buy the newer ones, but people who are specifically fans of Thinkpads rather than it just being another laptop). I know thats certainly the case for me. I never even considered that someone who considers themselves a thinkpad fan, or even collector, would rush out to buy the latest one.

LoveMortuus 5y ago

Is it just me, or did old laptops have better keyboards that the new ones have today? My first laptop was Acer Aspire One (this one [0]). I still have it and I still use it, it's currently running Debian with Xfce. And the keyboard is still the best I've ever used, I genuinely prefer this keyboard over any desktop keyboards that I've tried and I've tried many mechanical including Cherry Brown switches. I get that the very low profile keyboards on modern laptops look nice, but I personally don't use the keyboard for its looks. Not to mention that my cat stepped on the "Enter" key of one of the newer laptops (Acer CB3-431) and she broke the butterfly shaped keycap stabilisation thingy making the button feel very inconsistent. I can't the replacement for just the bit that broke, I have to buy an entire new keyboard for it (~55€). The cat wasn't fat and she has walked over pretty much every keyboard that I've used, but that was the first one that broke... It is this line of thinking that I personally think is the reason why a good number of people like and still use ThinkPads today. [0] https://www.globalmediapro.com/dp/A25LT9/Acer-Aspire-One-AOA-150-Notebook/ https://www.globalmediapro.com/dp/A25LT9/Acer-Aspire-One-AOA...

toyg 5y ago
It's not just looks - newer keys likely use less plastic, because the market is inevitably obsessed with cost-shaving. Less plastic -> increased fragility -> more faults.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  The market is even more obsessed with shaving thickness, and the keyboard must typically sit above the mainboard, heatsinks, speakers etc. which leads to ultra-thin designs for that part. There's no way to make that properly ergonomic, the best you can do is let users cope with a "low travel" design that still provides some feedback to the fingers.
- Joeri 5y ago
  I had a 2015 thinkpad, and even on that model the keycaps were so thin that two keys split in half due to normal use after 5 years. They were so thin that I couldn’t glue them together, and lenovo as it turns out will not sell you replacement keycaps, only replacement keyboards. Luckily there are third parties which sell the keycaps.

ho_schi 5y ago

With Linux 5.17 S0ix maybe works: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/Linux-S0ix-support-on-AMD-platforms/m-p/5098254?page=1 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/Linux-S... With Linux 5.17 AMD should provided also something similar to pstate, which should improve the things further: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=AMD-P-State-Linux-5.17 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=AMD-P-St... But Lenovo is still struggling: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Lenovo-AMD-PP-Not-Working https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Lenovo-A... I love ThinkPads. We've four in the family. Reasons: * Haptic feedback of keyboard * TrackPoint * Maintenance Manual and spare part available for at least five years (ten would be better) * Linux Support and Certification Sadly the blog reflects some of my findings, I'm using myself an X220 with Linux. I want to buy a new one but Lenovo makes it hard. The old seven row keyboard has a better layout, RJ45 is available, a nice palmrest, the battery is replaceable and the main-memory not soldered. Right when four core CPUs where available, Lenovo decided to remove the card-slot on the side and the RJ45. Luckily there are some improvements, they put a gap between [HOME, END, INSERT, DELETE] on the six row keyboard, X13 Gen2 finally provides a 16:10 display again (Wohoo!) and it is more sturdy then the X220. And finally decent AMD-Models are available. Lenovo seems to follow the bad industry pratices from other manufacturers instead of looking closely why ThinkPads are superior. Internal batteries, solder main-memory, awkwardly placed card-slots, missing RJ45 are problems. They keyboard is still the top of the industry and more comfortable than many desktop keyboards, because of the precise haptic feedback and concave shaped key-caps. The substandard keyboard from Apple on the other side does provides only flat (cheap?) key-caps, no TrackPoint and has a lot of longstanding quality issues. I'm also happily using and ThinkPad T14 Gen 1 AMD here with Linux. But from systems certificed for usage with Linux I expect more. I therefore also blame the lax requirements of Red Had and Lenovo. IBM (Red Hat), how about enforcing actual good support by Lenovo? I'm aware that all of that awkward, specially patched drivers on Windows are actually workarounds. And Microsoft enforce the sticker/label program. Maybe the complete industry should question there quality standards. I think most of power-management shall not be the duty of the operating-system but the firmware. Broken ACPI-Tables should thing of the past. I've some Lenovo representative is reading. Most customers wont' tell you why the bought your product. But in long term the will notice the things. The will buy again if it was good. They won't tell you "keyboard has feature x" and "card-slot is placed nicely", they will just like it or not. And the server stats of ThinkVantage will most of the time not tell you anything about the Linux-Users. Most of the time not even for Windows within company networks. It is quality what make a company running for decades and not hoping on the the next industry trend.

smoyer 5y ago

We've got four X1 Carbon's in our house - the oldest is a gen2 and the latest is a gen 9. They're all amazing but share the design quirk changes noted in by the OP. My biggest issue remains that the keyboard layouts are slightly different.

Loic 5y ago

Allowing myself a slightly off-topic question: For the people having old Thinkpads (X220 for example), where do you buy replacement batteries? Are you buying many from different providers hoping to land one good in the pack? How can you have a kind of minimal confidence that it will not be a security hazard?

MisterSandman 5y ago
I wonder the same thing, with the added asterisk of "...in Canada?" I think the answer is that many don't, including me. I don't really need to use my laptop on the go as much, so I just carry around that giant ass power brick.
spaniard89277 5y ago
GreenCell and Luxnote, but I'm in the EU.
- amiga-workbench 5y ago
  I can absolutely vouch for GreenCell, they've kept my X201's going for years, and they're not naff reconditioned cells inside.
  - Loic 5y ago
    Thanks a lot both of you for recommending GreenCell. I just ordered a new battery for my X220 :-)
paulmd 5y ago
Lenovo is quite good at supporting their products, as manufacturers go, so you might still be able to find an OEM pack that is not too stale. Past that, I think the next best answer is you crack open the pack and you replace the cells yourself. The aftermarket packs are total garbage.
NGRhodes 5y ago
I've had good luck with cheap generics (varying brand names, originating from China) from Amazon, now on my 5th battery with no issue.

jll29 5y ago

My favorite form factor ThinkPad was the small square x61 with the most amazing keyboard of any laptop I have every touched. My overall favorite was the x230, whereas the x240 was unusable due to an erratic touch pad (the cursor would jump around while typing code). Nowadays I use an X1 at home and a MacBook (M1) at work, and the Mac wins regarding weight, speed, interoperability (WiFi, sound), battery and raw computer power, but the x1 wins with respect to keyboard, Linux support. I think the MacBook makes the better travel companion but the x1 makes the better dev machine (Linux is a "less odd" UNIX than MacOS X, speaking of paths, command names etc. memorized from varies Unices over the years). I would be keen to try out the X1 Nano, but the 1st generation is too similar to my existing box to consider an upgrade. BTW, whatever happened to the "ThinkPad Classic"?

ct0 5y ago
There was a "reboot" by a modder called the x62. He brought he specs up to a more modern era and increased the resolution. I was lucky enough to hop on the pre-built line and snag one for a good price. Add it to you watchlist on ebay because sometimes someone will post one. https://www.notebookcheck.net/X62-Laptop-Review.211598.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/X62-Laptop-Review.211598.0.htm...
major505 5y ago
I never liked the Thinkpads touch, and for some reason if I'm running my x250 in windows it just stops working after a few minutes (runs fine in linux, so ok), but in the end, I hate the concept of a trackpad and always carry a wireless mouse with me.
bouncing 5y ago
By ThinkPad Classic, you mean, the ThinkPad 25 Retro Anniversary Edition? I think it was kind of popular, but for $2,000, it just wasn't very competitive even with other ThinkPads. You were essentially paying a premium for a 7-row keyboard.
p_l 5y ago
If you mean the anniversary model, aka T25, it was T470 with "large delete" keyboard attached and configured in EC, and was done as one off anniversary model. No future plans for "classic" appear to be on the roadmap.

mrslave 5y ago

Had a 220. Looooved it. It probably even had the substandard screen. But my X1 Carbon Gen4 (I don't upgrade too often) was terrible. I never thought I would be one to say this: it was probably the keyboard I disliked the most. Now rocking a Dell XPS 13 (7390) and it's great. The light keyboard is fine. I've tried colleagues Apples of varying styles and never like the keyboard or trackpad. (Included because I consider the Dell design to be superficially similar, or at least both are in contrast to the IBM/Lenovo nice keyboard philosophy of yesteryear). I hear more negative reports about more recent XPS 13s than mine but I'm still not going back to Lenovo.

hestefisk 5y ago

I have been using ThinkPads for 20+ years. By far, my favourite is the X23 (IBM, not Lenovo), such had a 4:3 display and an excellent keyboard with proper home/pg up/pg down/arrow keys. It was a wonderful machine.

5- 5y ago

the preference of older thinkpads is strong and common enough that there is even a cottage industry of custom motherboards with newer components made to fit older chassis, see e.g. https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ it looks like framework managed to do a fine macbook clone; what would it take them (or someone else) to clone thinkpad next?

spaniard89277 5y ago
I hope so. I think there's plenty of people waiting for that, including me. A modern x220? Good keyboard, trackpoint, decent screen with good outdoors brightness, backlit keyboard, and good linux compatibility? I'm just dreaming, I know.

blackaspen 5y ago

This is funny as I was just thinking to myself this morning, "My X13 is the worst Thinkpad I've ever owned". The S3/S5 issues aren't limited to Linux, they exist in Windows too. I've set my laptop to just hibernate whenever I close the display to get around the issue, though it's very annoying. I also made the mistake of optioning mine with the PrivacyGuard screen, but that's on me. I actually can't wait till I can justify upgrading. Performance is great on the "original" AMD one, 8 cores, 32GB of RAM!

fuzzy2 5y ago

I also have an X220. An X220 Tablet though. An all-around embarrassing device. Sure, the form factor was correct, but everything else was not. Should’ve just returned it. The keyboard is not firmly seated inside and bounces around, resulting in audible vibrations. When switching to tablet mode, TrackPoint no longer deactivates. The screen moves it, moving the cursor in turn. 3G card was mediocre at best. The pen digitizer does not work properly at screen edges no matter how much I calibrate. Add to this all the general ThinkPad problems like locked-down Wi-Fi card slots, mediocre battery life and fans that are running all the time. I’m not sorry at all I jumped ship back then. I still use the Late 2013 MacBook Pro now. It’s certainly not perfect but just so much better. But that’s just for me.

markus_zhang 5y ago

One major complaint (of mine) is the small size if the arrow keys. Macbook pro is even worse with up/down keys smaller than left/right. I don't know why but they all keep a huge right shift key that I never use. They should cut it to half and give more spaces to the arrow keys. Sadly the new Macbook pro keeps the design. I'm getting sick of hitting page up/down accidentally when navigating code.

cassandratt 5y ago
Pick up some Vim skills, your future self will thank you. Vim bindings are available in every editor worth using. You’ll never touch your arrows again.
angulardragon03 5y ago
I’d recommend you check again. Apple doesn’t sell a laptop without an inverse-T arrow key layout.

erwincoumans 5y ago

The battery drain while lid closed and the firmware brick issues are totally unacceptable. Also, it seems as if AMD based laptops in general have been crippled compared to Intel based ones. I wouldn't be surprised if Intel forces the laptop makers to cripple AMD based laptops, with the choice of discrete GPU, screen sizes, quality or resolution. I'm happy to move to ARM Macbook M1 Pro, leaving AMD and Intel behind.

neogodless 5y ago
This has been improving greatly. I never owned an AMD based laptop before 2020, but when Ryzen 4000 came out, I got excited. Then I waited... and waited. In that first year, discrete GPU maxed out at RTX 2060 while Intel laptops would get RTX 2080 (mobile, of course.) Screens were all 1080p while Intel laptops paired with 4K, and they were often lower refresh rate (i.e. the 240Hz gaming ones were all Intel). Brightness was often 250-300 nit with any AMD laptop, but Intel offered some with 500 nits. Keyboards were lucky to be backlit, let alone per-key RGB! Those were some of the most recognizable differences (specific to my shopping), but others were here and there. In 2021, things shifted. The highest end gaming laptops were often available with the AMD CPU (APU), with 300Hz screens, higher brightness, etc. Intel still makes Thunderbolt an effective Intel-exclusive, even though it's technically feasible on AMD laptops. But laptop OEMs have started taking AMD much more seriously in the past couple of years. (Eventually I got a Lenovo Legion 5 - just over $1k with a Ryzen 4800H, 16GB, 512GB, 144Hz 300-nit 1080p screen, RTX 2060 6GB. Of course the options are a lot higher end now, but also a lot more expensive!)

ajit283 5y ago

Recently bought a X270 to take on travels and I love it. It's a breath of fresh air compared to the modern laptop world. All the ports you need, exchangeable battery and indestructible. Performance isn't great, but alright for light development work. My biggest gripe is probably the screen, that definitely shows its age.

cosmiccatnap 5y ago

tomcat27 5y ago

If it makes you feel any better, I am facing EXACTLY the same battery drain issue n macOS since last three years and found no solution or support from Apple who pretend the issue doesn’t exist in the first place despite forums shouting loud.

jimnotgym 5y ago

> The removal of the SD cards slot and Ethernet port has made recent ThinkPads a suboptimal choice for traveling photographers and some IT professionals. This might be true of the x series, but the T series still has an RJ45 and a microSD

rathboma 5y ago

Still working on an X1 carbon 5th. Screen isn't very good and the processor feels pretty slow. But it sleeps properly and the battery life is great (Ubuntu 20.04). Holding out until Framework gen 2 comes out, either with AMD or Intel 12th gen. Feels to me like framework is going to take all the Linux users. Wouldn't be surprised if they release a keyboard with a track point too. Hope they put attention into proper S3 sleep. What a massive industry regression in the last 5 years.

bigpeopleareold 5y ago

Every couple of weeks these come up. I am glad they do and eat them all up. :) Maybe the market research from posts like these are anecdotal, but it still screams that there is a market for old ThinkPad-style designs. Is this request too niche? I am not sure, but I would love to think that manufacturers should just see from these that good, old designs work well for people and people will want to buy those designs. I would and I would be excited over that.

LNSY 5y ago
https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2020-05-08-the-much-more-personal-computer.html https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2020-05-08-the-much-more-p... I've been thinking about getting this laptop. I am a little hesitant because it is far more of a project than other laptops, but it seems to give me that Thinkpad x200T vibe. I am a web dev, and I've been considering pairing this with an Apple Ipad as a sort of second screen / browser.
- bigpeopleareold 5y ago
  I have had the same thought when it comes to the case where I will need something for the future. The price is not a surprise for the amount of production for this. I am personally waiting to see what comes of the SoM being worked on to support 16gb.

Besticle 5y ago

I brought a T450 and the screen hinge snapped off after 2 years literally a week after the warranty was up. I missed the heyday of IBM Thinkpads but the apparent blind brand loyalty and cult like following they have now is unneeded and allows Lenovo to get away with crazy things like 1368p screens is crazy.

eecc 5y ago

I bought a T14s to bridge the MacBook Pro gap before the M1. I expected more and am frankly looking forward to return to Apple, as soon as they sort out their supply-chain backlog. It could have been better: firmware issues (as mentioned in the article and other posts, power management is a joke), very poor Windows performance (UI lag during network streaming due to the NT kernel only hammering CORE0), embarrassing Linux desktop experience (after so many years it's still such a massive train-wreck). I just don't have the time to deal with all this, all while attempting to get some work done.

post_break 5y ago

I bet the screen protector on the X270 can be removed. I removed it on my X250 because of the stupid scratches. https://imgur.com/ZuK360I https://imgur.com/ZuK360I https://imgur.com/FNC1fhO https://imgur.com/FNC1fhO https://imgur.com/wbJZKxQ https://imgur.com/wbJZKxQ

dynamic_sausage 5y ago

Some of the issues in the article seem to have been caused by the push to make laptops smaller: internal battery, fewer ports. A natural solution would be to change the series you use to a larger one — e.g., go from X to T, etc. I owned T440s (note the "s" for slim version), but later switched to T490 exactly for this reason. The non-slim T490 is actually thinner than the T440s was, because of the miniaturization trend, and has all the right ports (alas, still no external battery). Absolutely no power, suspend, etc issues at all under Arch.

LeonM 5y ago

After reading a lot of praise on Thinkpads on HN, especially by Linux users, I decided to but a Lenovo X1-Extreme (gen 1) for work. Specs basically maxed out. Here is my experience with the X1E: # Business use & warranty: For business use, Lenovo offers on-site repair. Lenovo will come to you and repair or replace a broken device. At a reasonable cost (~300 eur) you can extend this to a 3 year contract. Compared to Apple (who have zero options for on-site repairs, and zero extended warranty options for small business) this is infinitely better for professional use. Regardless of how many 'pro' titles Apple slap on their products, you basically get 0 service from them, even if you pay. # Hardware: - Coil whine. So. Much. Coil whine :-( - Laptop comes with 2 M.2 slots, one occupied by the factory SSD. This allowed me to install a second SSD for a Linux/Windows dual boot. RAM is also user upgradable. - Fans are noisy and ramp-up is very aggressive, might be able to tweak this. - 4K display is gorgeous, though I am kind of bummed that there was no matte finish option when I ordered my gen 1 (matte OLED became available in gen 3). - Keyboard is really good. - Audio (speakers) are quite bad compared to a Macbook of any generation. - After first month of use, the display started showing signs of damage (not just dirty) by keyboard imprints, even with careful use. - Ethernet uses proprietary connector, you must buy a Lenovo dongle (though they are inexpensive IIRC) - Charger has proprietary connector, X1E cannot charge via USB-C # Linux support: - WiFi, webcam and function keys work out of the box. Fingerprint reader does not, but have not made any effort to use it. - Audio output switching often leaves driver for internal speakers in a weird state, causing a weird delayed noise/crackling effect during playback. - The (insanely expensive) Thunderbolt dock (AN40) is unreliable under Linux. Most notably when laptop goes into standby. Hot-plugging almost never works. Even after all the firmware updates (which require a windows only utility btw). With an external display attached (DP, via TB3 dock) and the laptop in stand-by, the dock starts emitting some stray interrupt that will eat 100% CPU, ramping the fans up to maximum. - The Linux ACPI driver is quite bad. Battery status is almost always 'unknown'. If battery status does display 'full', it usually reports $random percentage between 60 and 80%. Wake-up after stand-by has endless other problems. - USB ports (internal, or on TB dock) regularly become unresponsive after stand-by. May be related to ACPI issues. - The dual GPU (Intel + nVidia) situation remains a nightmare under Linux, though this is not Lenovos fault obviously. # Windows: - Lots and lots of bloatware out of the box - Laptop regularly wakes up from sleep while in my backpack, burning 100% of the battery of you don't notice it. - Otherwise works fine under Windows. # Conclusion So, concluding, my first-time experience is mediocre. Linux support isn't great, though the laptop mostly works as promised under Windows. The service and support of Lenovo is (in my experience) on-par with Dell, and light years ahead of Apple. Due to the praise for Lenovo here on HN, I had high hopes for proper Linux support, but that was disappointing. In 2019, when I bought the X1E, the offering by Apple was really bad, which made me look for other brand laptops. But if I was to buy a new laptop today, I'll probably go back to Apple. With M1 support shaping up (thanks Marcan!), it might even become a good Linux machine.

einpoklum 5y ago

> Until Lenovo sold me a lemon — ThinkPad X13 AMD. Lenovo has sold us lemons in the X series since they started fucking up their keyboards after the X220. The X230 is still usable, but - X240 and later - not really. The poster does note this fact, but still claims the thinning of the chassis over the years is a good thing... Wrong :-( This sentence: > it’s easy to argue that the X220’s design from the top picture is the least practical. is the opposite of the truth. For a decent keyboard you need key travel, and for key travel you need travel height. Now, could you save a bit of height by battery improvements or rearrangements? Or by display thinning? Sure, but the Lenovo killed the keyboard for an extra 6mm or so. > X270 ... just looks so much more pleasing to my eye Come on. Really? Are you a fashion model? > Proprietary charging port It's true that the switch to USB-C allows for more flexibility. However - I personally liked how the port was round, and thick, so you could very easily get your plug in without having to lean in and take a closer look. But can't really complain about that I suppose. > Touchpad This may be the most controversial take I have on Thinkpads, but personally, for me, this is mostly and annoyance and something I tap by mistake. And something which takes space away from the keyboard... I'm perfectly fine with my trackpoint.

stakkur 5y ago

>Most of the ThinkPads' unique features, as I’ve realized upon writing this article, are long gone. It’s painful to admit, but I came to the same conclusion for similar reasons. I’ve owned ThinkPads off and on since 2000, most recently an x280. I still have a rock solid T400 in my workshop, and a modded T440s (added trackpad buttons), but I’ve sold off all the rest and am now pondering whether to buy some version of the X1 Carbon. I've given up collecting old gems like the x230 because, despite all the wonderful features, the screen and battery just don't cut it for me anymore.

caditinpiscinam 5y ago

I tried out a new thinkpad recently. I had heard, here and on other sites, that they're the best laptops for running linux, but I experienced a number of issues when trying to run recent versions of ubuntu and pop os, including: - Hotkeys, like brightness adjustment, not working on some versions - Wifi not working (I found a driver on github that I wasn't able to get working) - Really short battery life, even after fiddling with sleep mode in the bios - Choppy touchpad controls I might have had better luck with an intel model (this one was AMD), or with a slightly older model that's had more time to be tested and supported, but it definitely wasn't the "just works" experience I was hoping for

synergy20 5y ago

Lenovo X1 Carbon is my favorite with Ethernet and Wifi and 14" screen, super light and battery lasts, good for travel and local development.

petepete 5y ago
Mine too. Everything just worked perfectly with Fedora out of the box. I got the 4k one which in retrospect I'd switch for the 1440p (for battery life), but either way it's a pleasure to use.

jcun4128 5y ago

Wow that intro meme ha. I used to obsess over the Carbon X1 when it was new. I have a smaller Carbon now but man nice computers. I also like that I can take it apart pretty easily to replace stuff. The keyboard is nice too. Never got into the red mouse thing though.

ohazi 5y ago

The S3 / S0ix sleep state power consumption fiasco is completely unacceptable. I have two T480 laptops with usable S3 that I regularly put to sleep for a week. I will not be upgrading them until after I can confirm that this mess has been fixed. I no longer care whether blame lies with Lenovo or with Intel's reference platform. The product is so broken that it is fundamentally unfit for my use case.

buovjaga 5y ago

We unbricked a Lenovo T570 once by flashing a working BIOS into the EEPROM chip. It was a rather nervewracking experience. I wrote down the steps in this Arch wiki article: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T570 https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T570

smm11 5y ago

Oh, yeah? 365, and X1 Carbon.

robk 5y ago

The x210 is awesome if you want to get the old ThinkPad feel but modern processor https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/

dredmorbius 5y ago

For anyone who's not watched the Louis Rossman rant (2014) on how Lenovo screwed the pooch on Thinkapds, do. https://yewtu.be/watch?v=doEZMNXz1JY https://yewtu.be/watch?v=doEZMNXz1JY Caution: harsh language and harder truths. All completely justified. I'd love to know how this was received at Lenovo, because this should be part of every new hire's onboarding.

l8rlump 5y ago
Thanks for introducing me to invidious just now!
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  It's only a proxy in front of YT, but does seem to address several immediate issues with the service.
TwoNineFive 5y ago
The paid Lenovo shills DO NOT want you to watch this video. =)

fegu 5y ago

ThinkPadding for 22 years. From the A21p or A31p (I think that was my first, but it has been a while) to the Nano now. Thinkpads are not the same any longer. My nano spontaneously overheats and shuts down out of nowhere when Windows runs the built in antivirus scan for too long. I got the motherboard replaced but it did not fix the issue. But what else is out there if you need a stable solid workhorse? My only requirements these days is 16GB, 1TB and a beautiful display (waiting for affordable OLEDs).

Koshkin 5y ago

Running Slackware 15 on an old-ish Thinkpad. Everything just works. Life is good.

dynamohk 5y ago

Personally felt the quality go down. Had one around 2010 was great. Maybe should look into dells.

TwoNineFive 5y ago

Lenovo pays influencers to post dribble like this. It's an ad.