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I think the biggest issue is that people are lonely due to the pandemic, and are conflating that with working from home. You can have a strong social life and w

by Salgat 5y ago

I think the biggest issue is that people are lonely due to the pandemic, and are conflating that with working from home. You can have a strong social life and working from home. For others, unfortunately the only socialization they can get is forced interaction with coworkers at the office.

klodolph 5y ago
Conflating those concepts may be appropriate here, for many people. I don't think it's only a matter of how strong your social life is outside of work, or a matter of people leaning on forced socialization at work. That's an overly reductive look at it. I would like to talk about it but I'm kind of sick of seeing the discussion framed in term of people who only socialize at the office. The fact is, in the office we have many in-person interactions spread throughout the day. Socialization isn't fungible, we can't simply replace interactions in one context with interactions in another context and assume people will be happy with it.
- brjiro8 5y ago
ketzo 5y ago
I can see what you're getting at, and I thought it was the issue for me, but I've come to realize that it's not a loneliness/lack of socialization thing. It's just that I really treasure in-person interactions with the people I am working on something with. I got into software engineering because I like solving problems, but also because I love solving problems with really smart people. Turns out that it feels really good to do that in person! Coffee breaks, lunch outings, being able to stop by someone's desk and shoot the shit or see what they're working on -- I've realized that these things are not only enjoyable for me, but critical for both the actual quality of my work and my motivation to do it. Not to mention any kind of whiteboarding / collaborative discussion, which I think is pretty obviously nicer in person. So far, nothing I have tried remotely gives me the same kind of satisfaction that just physically being with my work partners does. I do think there's something very deeply ingrained in me that's responsible for that, and I know it's definitely not something everyone wants or needs.
- cube00 5y ago
  > being able to stop by someone's desk and shoot the shit or see what they're working on So long as the other person feels the same way. One of the reasons I enjoy working from home is people can no longer wonder by and shatter my concentration because they're on a break. They can ping me in chat and I'll get to it in my break.
  - hansel_der 5y ago
    sure, obnoxious coworkers suck, but the 'oh noes, my concentration/flow' argument has been done to death imo. thanks to hybrid work, ppl can hide at home all they want. ps: pls also consider parents that get interrupted far more frequently when working from home.
    - raducu 5y ago
      > sure, obnoxious coworkers suck, but the 'oh noes, my concentration/flow' argument has been done to death imo. But why do such people say such silly things if it's not true? Do I think it's 100% true? No, but it feels that way for them. I f*king hate useless meetings where my time is wasted. I had a coleague express the same thing about a topic. Business replied "well, we only had 4 meetings and at least 2 were really required so it was not excessive". So who was right? Everybody was right, business did not feel it was excessivez the developers felt it was excessive. WFH works, 2 years of pandemic proved it does. Some people like it and some people don't, it's not about arguments but about preferences.
      - Melchizedek 5y ago
        But it just so happens that one preference is highly correlated with doing useful work, and the other to chatting, butt-in-seat mentality, and having others do your job (asking for "help").
- shashurup 5y ago
  Interesting. I've never ask myself this question, but reading your post I have realized that I really don't like solving problem together in person with whiteboard etc. Realizing that this cannot be considered as a good trait from professional perspective I still cannot resist the bitter feeling of hours wasted that way. My memory definitely deceives me - it couldn't always be that bad, but I can't help the impression is still strong.
physicles 5y ago
For me, the two aren't conflated, and I still find that I prefer some office time. I have the ability to work from home or work remote, so I often do that. But I live in China, so social life is rather normal these days (modulo the occasional restrictions). Like another commenter said, I find it easier to care about the concerns of people around me, so if that's a bunch of people at my company then I'll care more about them and what they need. It makes a difference for me if physical presence and work presence are aligned. Probably for a similar reason, I've found that I can't reach 100% productivity consistently (over weeks) unless I'm in an environment where people around me are working. So that means finding a coworking space wherever I go. Also, in-person conversation is so much higher bandwidth than anything else. Those couple hundred ms of latency do matter. Being able to party on the same physical whiteboard is really nice.
spike021 5y ago
I've seen this argument several times and while it's probably true for some segment of the population, it's definitely not for everyone (who feels this way). I have this sentiment, yet I hang out with one or two friends once or twice a week, occasionally some family every couple weeks or so, and constantly on a daily basis get to socialize with the parents of my dog's friends while on walks. None of that makes up for working alongside people. And I don't just mean work specifically but forming connections with my coworkers. I'm a huge proponent of making real social connections with coworkers so that it's easier to be collaborative with them. There will be times when your work is not siloed and you either need context about something that your coworker has contributed to before but you haven't, vice versa, etc. and it helps if you both have some kind of connection and stake in the work relationship. If there's no stake in it, then other than the bare minimum (such as not wanting someone to totally screw up something owned by the team), nothing will be contributed. It can make gathering context brutal, work more competitive (resource starvation where one coworker can let their coworker have more trouble which results in them getting a better pick of things to work on, etc.).
- GFischer 5y ago
  I think forming connections is very important... but it should be encouraged independently from working at the office or remotely. I work remotely for a U.S. company with coworkers from Ethiopia and other countries. Pre-pandemic, they flew me to the U.S. and I met the U.S. and Indian coworkers, and we went to a conference together. It was a HUGE help - but I think it's something that can be done a few times a year or even once a year, doesn't need to be an everyday thing.
simondotau 5y ago
If I'm not occasionally in the same room as someone else, I find that in very small ways you lose an abstract, almost ethereal sense of being in connection with another human.
randomsearch 5y ago
Going to the pub or a cafe with a friend is completely different from the interactions you have in your work. Most (all?) humans need both - we need to work together, and we need to relax together.

by Salgat 5y ago

klodolph 5y ago

Conflating those concepts may be appropriate here, for many people. I don't think it's only a matter of how strong your social life is outside of work, or a matter of people leaning on forced socialization at work. That's an overly reductive look at it. I would like to talk about it but I'm kind of sick of seeing the discussion framed in term of people who only socialize at the office. The fact is, in the office we have many in-person interactions spread throughout the day. Socialization isn't fungible, we can't simply replace interactions in one context with interactions in another context and assume people will be happy with it.

brjiro8 5y ago

ketzo 5y ago

I can see what you're getting at, and I thought it was the issue for me, but I've come to realize that it's not a loneliness/lack of socialization thing. It's just that I really treasure in-person interactions with the people I am working on something with. I got into software engineering because I like solving problems, but also because I love solving problems with really smart people. Turns out that it feels really good to do that in person! Coffee breaks, lunch outings, being able to stop by someone's desk and shoot the shit or see what they're working on -- I've realized that these things are not only enjoyable for me, but critical for both the actual quality of my work and my motivation to do it. Not to mention any kind of whiteboarding / collaborative discussion, which I think is pretty obviously nicer in person. So far, nothing I have tried remotely gives me the same kind of satisfaction that just physically being with my work partners does. I do think there's something very deeply ingrained in me that's responsible for that, and I know it's definitely not something everyone wants or needs.

cube00 5y ago
> being able to stop by someone's desk and shoot the shit or see what they're working on So long as the other person feels the same way. One of the reasons I enjoy working from home is people can no longer wonder by and shatter my concentration because they're on a break. They can ping me in chat and I'll get to it in my break.
- hansel_der 5y ago
  sure, obnoxious coworkers suck, but the 'oh noes, my concentration/flow' argument has been done to death imo. thanks to hybrid work, ppl can hide at home all they want. ps: pls also consider parents that get interrupted far more frequently when working from home.
  - raducu 5y ago
    > sure, obnoxious coworkers suck, but the 'oh noes, my concentration/flow' argument has been done to death imo. But why do such people say such silly things if it's not true? Do I think it's 100% true? No, but it feels that way for them. I f*king hate useless meetings where my time is wasted. I had a coleague express the same thing about a topic. Business replied "well, we only had 4 meetings and at least 2 were really required so it was not excessive". So who was right? Everybody was right, business did not feel it was excessivez the developers felt it was excessive. WFH works, 2 years of pandemic proved it does. Some people like it and some people don't, it's not about arguments but about preferences.
    - Melchizedek 5y ago
      But it just so happens that one preference is highly correlated with doing useful work, and the other to chatting, butt-in-seat mentality, and having others do your job (asking for "help").
shashurup 5y ago
Interesting. I've never ask myself this question, but reading your post I have realized that I really don't like solving problem together in person with whiteboard etc. Realizing that this cannot be considered as a good trait from professional perspective I still cannot resist the bitter feeling of hours wasted that way. My memory definitely deceives me - it couldn't always be that bad, but I can't help the impression is still strong.

physicles 5y ago

For me, the two aren't conflated, and I still find that I prefer some office time. I have the ability to work from home or work remote, so I often do that. But I live in China, so social life is rather normal these days (modulo the occasional restrictions). Like another commenter said, I find it easier to care about the concerns of people around me, so if that's a bunch of people at my company then I'll care more about them and what they need. It makes a difference for me if physical presence and work presence are aligned. Probably for a similar reason, I've found that I can't reach 100% productivity consistently (over weeks) unless I'm in an environment where people around me are working. So that means finding a coworking space wherever I go. Also, in-person conversation is so much higher bandwidth than anything else. Those couple hundred ms of latency do matter. Being able to party on the same physical whiteboard is really nice.

spike021 5y ago

I've seen this argument several times and while it's probably true for some segment of the population, it's definitely not for everyone (who feels this way). I have this sentiment, yet I hang out with one or two friends once or twice a week, occasionally some family every couple weeks or so, and constantly on a daily basis get to socialize with the parents of my dog's friends while on walks. None of that makes up for working alongside people. And I don't just mean work specifically but forming connections with my coworkers. I'm a huge proponent of making real social connections with coworkers so that it's easier to be collaborative with them. There will be times when your work is not siloed and you either need context about something that your coworker has contributed to before but you haven't, vice versa, etc. and it helps if you both have some kind of connection and stake in the work relationship. If there's no stake in it, then other than the bare minimum (such as not wanting someone to totally screw up something owned by the team), nothing will be contributed. It can make gathering context brutal, work more competitive (resource starvation where one coworker can let their coworker have more trouble which results in them getting a better pick of things to work on, etc.).

GFischer 5y ago
I think forming connections is very important... but it should be encouraged independently from working at the office or remotely. I work remotely for a U.S. company with coworkers from Ethiopia and other countries. Pre-pandemic, they flew me to the U.S. and I met the U.S. and Indian coworkers, and we went to a conference together. It was a HUGE help - but I think it's something that can be done a few times a year or even once a year, doesn't need to be an everyday thing.

simondotau 5y ago

If I'm not occasionally in the same room as someone else, I find that in very small ways you lose an abstract, almost ethereal sense of being in connection with another human.

randomsearch 5y ago

Going to the pub or a cafe with a friend is completely different from the interactions you have in your work. Most (all?) humans need both - we need to work together, and we need to relax together.