4 ms·

The absolute absurdity of sitting in an open office, and pretending to program the full 9-5. That's just not how work like this happens. Why do companies pay th

The absolute absurdity of sitting in an open office, and pretending to program the full 9-5. That's just not how work like this happens. Why do companies pay their developers high salaries, but then tie one hand behind their backs like that. For me? Never again.

yupper32 5y ago
Why are you pretending to program the full 9-5? I like the office and am currently working in the office but I just... get up and leave whenever I want. Come back whenever I want. No need to pretend to work 9-5.
- derekp7 5y ago
  Here's a story that explains this concept. A programmer goes to his manager, presenting a paper with a lengthy problem for the manager to solve. The manager looks over the paper, thinks for a few minutes, then writes down the answer. The employee then tells the manager "What were you doing for the last 5 minutes? It didn't look like you were working at all". The manager responds saying "I was thinking about the problem before coming up with the solution". The programmer then informs the manager that this is what it is like to write code all day. But since programming looks like you are just sitting there not doing anything for much of the time, then you have to pretend to be doing something whenever someone walks by so it doesn't look like you are just goofing off (otherwise they feel that they can interrupt you breaking your train of thought). And that makes programming less efficient. The manager was then enlightened.
  - rizzaxc 5y ago
    every manager worth their salt climbs from being an engineer, so they should already know this
  - changxi_hn 5y ago
    I'm a software manager and this isn't what happens in practice at all. The more comfortable they are, the sloppier and lazy their resulting code as they feel no pressure to take their work seriously. I can, and will, stand behind devs for hours to keep them determined and on-task.
    - Trasmatta 5y ago
      Surely this post is parody, right?
    - alecbz 5y ago
      I think maybe this is some kind of local optimum, but a poor one. Like if your devs already don't give two shits about anything, pressure from you watching over them might improve things somewhat. But like the real fix is a path to a much better optimum, which is giving employees autonomy, trusting them, rewarding them adequately, getting them to actually care, so that they don't need to be watched over as individual code monkeys.
      - changxi_hn 5y ago
        No. I'm the manager, they're the dev. If they want autonomy, become an artist.
        toomanydoubts 5y ago
        Small wiener energy.
        alecbz 5y ago
        Do you want to feel powerful or to have productive devs?
    - toomanydoubts 5y ago
      I'm not a psychic, but I sense your software manager career is not going very far.
    - _9omd 5y ago
      I seriously hope this is sarcasm. The best devs I know are the ones that goof off the most, because they're the ones that know they're good at what they do. The crappy devs are the ones who sit quietly at their desks all day and pretend to get work done. I think you should seriously reconsider your management style.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  At least in my case, praise has often been given out based on time of work rather than work. I am a hard worker because I send 2AM emails (which I may have scheduled in advance to give that impression).
  - dymk 5y ago
    Does "praise" mean "cash" or "promotion" (and if so, does "promotion" mean "more cash")? If not, why would you care about praise?
    - MattGaiser 5y ago
      Benefit of the doubt if something takes longer than I estimate or if I decide to casually take an afternoon off to go talk to my aunt.
      - dymk 5y ago
        Is that not table stakes for any software engineering job?
- Trasmatta 5y ago
  That's pretty cool you work for a company with a culture that makes that possible. You're probably in the minority when it comes to office workers, though. > Why are you pretending to program the full 9-5? I'm not, because I now work from home. Where people value my actual work output, and not the hours I'm sitting in a chair, where my manager can see me.
- _9omd 5y ago
  This 100%. People are acting like someone is chaining them to their desk. Seriously, just get up! No one is going to say shit, you have all the power in this current market. I'm a huge fan of 2hr lunches that include a nap in the park. Get my best ideas walking to/from the park.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    This can be quite true. I have gone weeks barely checking email and nobody said anything. Nobody even noticed.
vesinisa 5y ago
My experience is almost exactly contrary. At home, I get a "guilty" feeling if I don't work 100% effectively for the whole day. At the office, I never felt pressured to "code" the full eight hours, as I could see nobody was doing so (in Slack it seems everyone else is always green/present.) At the office, I'd fill the day with conversations, lunch and coffee breaks, and other meaningful interactions with other programmers, managers, designers and various other stakeholders. At home, when I need to take a mental break I just get bored and start procrastinating with the computer. If I go see my family to the other room we talk family business. I look forward to returning to the office. Immense amounts of information just never get communicated over Slack & Zoom. I feel like working in a dark tunnel for the past 2 years and going. If I wanted to sharply focus on a specific task for the whole eight hours I could do unlimited remote already pre-Covid. I used this option rarely, as these days could get quite exhausting.
- Trasmatta 5y ago
  I guess this is a good example of different people's work styles, and why it's probably important to give people the flexibility of choosing. I don't feel that type of pressure when WFH, but do when I'm in an office. When WFH I'll often just check out for multiple hours in the middle of the day. Go on a walk, take a nap, whatever... Sometimes I'll just do more hours later that night to make up for it, or sometimes I'm just on top of everything anyway, and the break helps keep my mind fresh. I never felt like I had the ability to do things like that when in the office
  - vesinisa 5y ago
    Indeed. Unlimited remote option with no pressure to attend the office works the best for everyone. We had this already pre-Covid due to being a distributed team between two cities.
unobatbayar 5y ago
This is true, with exception of Japanese people programming the full 7am - 10pm and pretending not working.
_9omd 5y ago
But why go 9-5? Show up at 10. Take a 2hr lunch at noon, and leave at 4. Ride your bike in, chill with people you like, get some work done, don't stress yourself. Ride your bike home and crack a beer. No one is chaining you to a desk, if you're a software engineer the cards are all in your hand in this market.

yupper32 5y ago

Why are you pretending to program the full 9-5? I like the office and am currently working in the office but I just... get up and leave whenever I want. Come back whenever I want. No need to pretend to work 9-5.

derekp7 5y ago
Here's a story that explains this concept. A programmer goes to his manager, presenting a paper with a lengthy problem for the manager to solve. The manager looks over the paper, thinks for a few minutes, then writes down the answer. The employee then tells the manager "What were you doing for the last 5 minutes? It didn't look like you were working at all". The manager responds saying "I was thinking about the problem before coming up with the solution". The programmer then informs the manager that this is what it is like to write code all day. But since programming looks like you are just sitting there not doing anything for much of the time, then you have to pretend to be doing something whenever someone walks by so it doesn't look like you are just goofing off (otherwise they feel that they can interrupt you breaking your train of thought). And that makes programming less efficient. The manager was then enlightened.
- rizzaxc 5y ago
  every manager worth their salt climbs from being an engineer, so they should already know this
- changxi_hn 5y ago
  I'm a software manager and this isn't what happens in practice at all. The more comfortable they are, the sloppier and lazy their resulting code as they feel no pressure to take their work seriously. I can, and will, stand behind devs for hours to keep them determined and on-task.
  - Trasmatta 5y ago
    Surely this post is parody, right?
  - alecbz 5y ago
    I think maybe this is some kind of local optimum, but a poor one. Like if your devs already don't give two shits about anything, pressure from you watching over them might improve things somewhat. But like the real fix is a path to a much better optimum, which is giving employees autonomy, trusting them, rewarding them adequately, getting them to actually care, so that they don't need to be watched over as individual code monkeys.
    - changxi_hn 5y ago
      No. I'm the manager, they're the dev. If they want autonomy, become an artist.
      - toomanydoubts 5y ago
        Small wiener energy.
      - alecbz 5y ago
        Do you want to feel powerful or to have productive devs?
  - toomanydoubts 5y ago
    I'm not a psychic, but I sense your software manager career is not going very far.
  - _9omd 5y ago
    I seriously hope this is sarcasm. The best devs I know are the ones that goof off the most, because they're the ones that know they're good at what they do. The crappy devs are the ones who sit quietly at their desks all day and pretend to get work done. I think you should seriously reconsider your management style.
MattGaiser 5y ago
At least in my case, praise has often been given out based on time of work rather than work. I am a hard worker because I send 2AM emails (which I may have scheduled in advance to give that impression).
- dymk 5y ago
  Does "praise" mean "cash" or "promotion" (and if so, does "promotion" mean "more cash")? If not, why would you care about praise?
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    Benefit of the doubt if something takes longer than I estimate or if I decide to casually take an afternoon off to go talk to my aunt.
    - dymk 5y ago
      Is that not table stakes for any software engineering job?
Trasmatta 5y ago
That's pretty cool you work for a company with a culture that makes that possible. You're probably in the minority when it comes to office workers, though. > Why are you pretending to program the full 9-5? I'm not, because I now work from home. Where people value my actual work output, and not the hours I'm sitting in a chair, where my manager can see me.
_9omd 5y ago
This 100%. People are acting like someone is chaining them to their desk. Seriously, just get up! No one is going to say shit, you have all the power in this current market. I'm a huge fan of 2hr lunches that include a nap in the park. Get my best ideas walking to/from the park.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  This can be quite true. I have gone weeks barely checking email and nobody said anything. Nobody even noticed.

vesinisa 5y ago

My experience is almost exactly contrary. At home, I get a "guilty" feeling if I don't work 100% effectively for the whole day. At the office, I never felt pressured to "code" the full eight hours, as I could see nobody was doing so (in Slack it seems everyone else is always green/present.) At the office, I'd fill the day with conversations, lunch and coffee breaks, and other meaningful interactions with other programmers, managers, designers and various other stakeholders. At home, when I need to take a mental break I just get bored and start procrastinating with the computer. If I go see my family to the other room we talk family business. I look forward to returning to the office. Immense amounts of information just never get communicated over Slack & Zoom. I feel like working in a dark tunnel for the past 2 years and going. If I wanted to sharply focus on a specific task for the whole eight hours I could do unlimited remote already pre-Covid. I used this option rarely, as these days could get quite exhausting.

Trasmatta 5y ago
I guess this is a good example of different people's work styles, and why it's probably important to give people the flexibility of choosing. I don't feel that type of pressure when WFH, but do when I'm in an office. When WFH I'll often just check out for multiple hours in the middle of the day. Go on a walk, take a nap, whatever... Sometimes I'll just do more hours later that night to make up for it, or sometimes I'm just on top of everything anyway, and the break helps keep my mind fresh. I never felt like I had the ability to do things like that when in the office
- vesinisa 5y ago
  Indeed. Unlimited remote option with no pressure to attend the office works the best for everyone. We had this already pre-Covid due to being a distributed team between two cities.

unobatbayar 5y ago

This is true, with exception of Japanese people programming the full 7am - 10pm and pretending not working.

_9omd 5y ago

But why go 9-5? Show up at 10. Take a 2hr lunch at noon, and leave at 4. Ride your bike in, chill with people you like, get some work done, don't stress yourself. Ride your bike home and crack a beer. No one is chaining you to a desk, if you're a software engineer the cards are all in your hand in this market.