5 ms·

Which is much better than Musk who's a "libertarian"; constantly posting how America should do away with regulations to Twitter. Meanwhile he's not saying a si

Which is much better than Musk who's a "libertarian"; constantly posting how America should do away with regulations to Twitter. Meanwhile he's not saying a single thing about China (except once where he simply said "China's great!") since he has a car factory there. Really it's not hard to see most rich libertarians as completely full of shit. They want to pay less taxes and regulations for their business but they don't really show any signs of libertarianism when it comes to the most authoritarian threat to us all: China. In fact they'll happily have factories there.

errcorrectcode 5y ago
Billionaires like Koch and economists fabricated libertarianism to do away with costs and pass on externalities to everyone else. It's a utopian ideology far polar opposite of Communism. What's sad is how many "smart" people fall for it because it assumes everyone plays nice and common infrastructure is cheap. It's a filter bubble warped reality that plays from an unconscious bias Upton Sinclair effect of favoring what's good for you is good for everyone or everything. I would wager every billionaire is implicitly and explicitly out-of-touch with the concerns, worries, and stresses of the homeless and working poor. "If men were angels, no government would be necessary." - James Madison Since jerks and clueless idiots exist in droves, government regulation is absolutely essential to police what (greedy) people can and cannot do. Demonzing China isn't constructive and has the optics of racism. China isn't an imminent military threat to anyone outside the South China Sea and the border with India. The US is a far greater threat with hundreds of bases worldwide. China is a larger threat ecologically because of wanton water and air (including emissions) pollution through the manufacturing of domestic and export goods. China would be wise to tax carbon, regulate air/soil/water pollution, and/or cap/trade, even if it means driving nearly slave-wages carpetbagging corporations to Africa and other parts of Asia. Even if political interests prevent particular remediation solutions, China has the advantage that it can choose to deploy evidence-based solutions at scale ahead of economic interests in a self-serving, sustainment manner.
- cherrycherry98 5y ago
  I think it's disingenuous to call libertarianism fabricated, especially by people like the Kochs. This implies that those supporting its views are either manipulators or being ignorant of manipulation. It's a range of ideas rooted in enlightenment thinking that goes back hundreds of years, some of which are more extreme than others. I find this kind of sentiment across many political groups where each seems to think they are the enlightened ones trying to save humanity and others are just in it to manipulate others for personal gain. This is conspiracy theory thinking. We should treat arguments in good faith in that those arguing for them really do think they have merit and are the best for most people, as we work towards discovering where we might have incorrect assumptions or just plain different ideas on what is "best" and what is fair.
  - errcorrectcode 5y ago
    You think, based on what specifically? I don't think you know the history or how it was legitimized. Thom Hartmann has spent a few hours on this very subject across various shows. Checking facts, he gets them right every time. Cato (climate change deniers with phony IPCC reports), Koch (dirty industries tax write off), and Reason Foundation (libertarian grooming factory by rich reporters and rich celebrities pushing a viewpoint, not academics or independent professional journalists) often promulgate ideas that aren't helpful to anyone except the rich and those who vote against their own interests with an "alternative flavor" of "freedom" that isn't free for anyone but the well-off. Generalizing all political systems together is intellectually lazy and lacks nuance. Extreme utopian ideals like communism, libertarianism, and anarchism don't scale in the real world. I think you need to learn more about each of them in detail before you write it off as tribal "muh green team is better becuz it's mine." You're coming across as lacking in knowledge, experience, and a leg to stand on and going for a cheap shot. Practical is somewhere in the middle that gets things done and considers enough peoples' needs. There are dumb ideas, like for-profit healthcare, for-profit policing, "everyone picking themselves up by their bootstraps (as misinterpretation of a children's parable)", hyper-individualism, and doing away with government (anarchy, anarcho-capitalism).
    - 5y ago
tim333 5y ago
>Musk who's a "libertarian" That's not my impression, nor is there any mention of the word in the Wikipedia on his political views: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_of_Elon_Musk#Political_parties_and_the_US_in_general https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_of_Elon_Musk#Political_p...

errcorrectcode 5y ago

Billionaires like Koch and economists fabricated libertarianism to do away with costs and pass on externalities to everyone else. It's a utopian ideology far polar opposite of Communism. What's sad is how many "smart" people fall for it because it assumes everyone plays nice and common infrastructure is cheap. It's a filter bubble warped reality that plays from an unconscious bias Upton Sinclair effect of favoring what's good for you is good for everyone or everything. I would wager every billionaire is implicitly and explicitly out-of-touch with the concerns, worries, and stresses of the homeless and working poor. "If men were angels, no government would be necessary." - James Madison Since jerks and clueless idiots exist in droves, government regulation is absolutely essential to police what (greedy) people can and cannot do. Demonzing China isn't constructive and has the optics of racism. China isn't an imminent military threat to anyone outside the South China Sea and the border with India. The US is a far greater threat with hundreds of bases worldwide. China is a larger threat ecologically because of wanton water and air (including emissions) pollution through the manufacturing of domestic and export goods. China would be wise to tax carbon, regulate air/soil/water pollution, and/or cap/trade, even if it means driving nearly slave-wages carpetbagging corporations to Africa and other parts of Asia. Even if political interests prevent particular remediation solutions, China has the advantage that it can choose to deploy evidence-based solutions at scale ahead of economic interests in a self-serving, sustainment manner.

cherrycherry98 5y ago
I think it's disingenuous to call libertarianism fabricated, especially by people like the Kochs. This implies that those supporting its views are either manipulators or being ignorant of manipulation. It's a range of ideas rooted in enlightenment thinking that goes back hundreds of years, some of which are more extreme than others. I find this kind of sentiment across many political groups where each seems to think they are the enlightened ones trying to save humanity and others are just in it to manipulate others for personal gain. This is conspiracy theory thinking. We should treat arguments in good faith in that those arguing for them really do think they have merit and are the best for most people, as we work towards discovering where we might have incorrect assumptions or just plain different ideas on what is "best" and what is fair.
- errcorrectcode 5y ago
  You think, based on what specifically? I don't think you know the history or how it was legitimized. Thom Hartmann has spent a few hours on this very subject across various shows. Checking facts, he gets them right every time. Cato (climate change deniers with phony IPCC reports), Koch (dirty industries tax write off), and Reason Foundation (libertarian grooming factory by rich reporters and rich celebrities pushing a viewpoint, not academics or independent professional journalists) often promulgate ideas that aren't helpful to anyone except the rich and those who vote against their own interests with an "alternative flavor" of "freedom" that isn't free for anyone but the well-off. Generalizing all political systems together is intellectually lazy and lacks nuance. Extreme utopian ideals like communism, libertarianism, and anarchism don't scale in the real world. I think you need to learn more about each of them in detail before you write it off as tribal "muh green team is better becuz it's mine." You're coming across as lacking in knowledge, experience, and a leg to stand on and going for a cheap shot. Practical is somewhere in the middle that gets things done and considers enough peoples' needs. There are dumb ideas, like for-profit healthcare, for-profit policing, "everyone picking themselves up by their bootstraps (as misinterpretation of a children's parable)", hyper-individualism, and doing away with government (anarchy, anarcho-capitalism).
  - 5y ago

tim333 5y ago

>Musk who's a "libertarian" That's not my impression, nor is there any mention of the word in the Wikipedia on his political views: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_of_Elon_Musk#Political_parties_and_the_US_in_general https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_of_Elon_Musk#Political_p...