5 ms·

School is a pretty fucking awful thing to do to a human being, particularly to a child, worst of all to a bright or curious child. Everything rests on it being

School is a pretty fucking awful thing to do to a human being, particularly to a child, worst of all to a bright or curious child. Everything rests on it being “for their own good.” And that seemed plausible. But if we really think we can cut two years of it with no ill effects, then the existence of those years in the “normal” plan is a moral emergency.

tagoregrtst 5y ago
The only thing worse than school is not being around kids your age. Also, as far as I can tell, “school sucks” is very much an Anglo thing. I went to primary school in English, in continental Europe, and in Latin America. The latter two were great, but my school in an English speaking country was awful, basically social Darwinism, and well described by Waters, Orwell and Hollywood.
- jsiaajdsdaa 5y ago
  Spent my whole child life being tormented by school bullies. Did drugs and alcohol in college. Studied history so as to not fail. Graduated, began programming on my own time, 9 years later I'm making $300,000 a year as a programmer. Only people I talk to are my wife, my mom, and a few people on Discord about 3d graphics. I can safely tell you that human interaction in the sense of "make 300 friends at school so that you aren't considered a freak or loner!" was never necessary, and in fact was an active burden.
  - starik36 5y ago
    This might be the most "programmer" post I've seen on the site today.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - jsiaajdsdaa 5y ago
      But I am a productive and responsible member of society and I have a good relationship with those who matter to me. I also volunteer my time online to those less fortunate. Why did I need to be hazed for 18 years?
      - BobbyJo 5y ago
        You didn't 'need' to be, you were just unlucky. Some people get the short straw. There is always some number of short straws, and some people have to get them.
        closeparen 5y ago
        It’s a government institution, not a volcano. Everything about how it works is quite deliberate. Specific, identifiable human beings take positive actions to make sure it happens and make sure you personally are there, having it happen to you. This passive framing is bizarre.
  - SCUSKU 5y ago
    I am certainly sorry for your past experiences with bullying, trying to meet expectations, and potentially using drugs and alcohol as a crutch. However, I think it may be worth reconsidering your position that only talking to or having relationships 2 people IRL is satisfactory. Precious negative experiences with people does not mean all people are bad. With effort, you will certainly find people who expand your worldview and enrich your life. Best wishes.
    - jsiaajdsdaa 5y ago
      Thanks for writing and I appreciate everything you've said :) I'm certainly not like, inherently distrustful of people or a shut in. Actually I'm quite talkative and find it pretty natural to talk to people. I just don't think that kids should have to be forced into the same building for so many years of their life. Voluntary school is great, but I don't think the trope is always true that homeschooled kids are "freaks and loners and nerds who will faceplant in the real world", which is my opinion on what the popular sentiment is here. I don't think the risks of in person school outweigh the benefits.
      - SCUSKU 5y ago
        Gotcha, I apologize if I came off a bit condescendingly, it's just hard to tell how people truly are based on a single internet comment. I just have friends who have really shut themselves in light of COVID, I think almost to their certain detriment. And I have found myself in similar patterns, and have recently begun correcting that and have been on a bit of a personal crusade to combat anti-socialism in the guise of introversion. But I digress. I was wondering if you elaborate on your position regarding homeschooling and the risks of in person school a bit more? I am curious to hear your perspective. Thanks!
  - phs318u 5y ago
    If anyone has 300 people they call "friends", then they are not friends. Acquaintances perhaps.
  - blarneystone 5y ago
    People have varying needs for human interaction. For most, this much interaction will result in some pretty severe serotonin deficiencies and debilitating depression. If you have very low social needs then all power to you, but it shouldn't be a template in any sense for the average person.
  - BobbyJo 5y ago
    Do you think your situation is common or an outlier? If you think you're an outlier, then it's not super relevant. I was in the total opposite boat. I got bullied here and there (I was the classic gangly tall kid, still am at 35), but school was the sole source of normalcy in my life for most of my adolescence. I'd be willing to bet that the extremes on either end mostly cancel out, and, for the vast majority, school is a net positive because of the socialization and the opportunity to get information that isn't filtered through your parents.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    It's a good thing that life is more than producing hyper focussed individuals who only want to 'program and chat on discord'.
    - jsiaajdsdaa 5y ago
      How does this translate to "as a result we must force all children to socialize together in person until they are 18"?
      - tagoregrtst 5y ago
        Children, universally as far as I can tell, want to be with other children. As we mature we want other things, more time alone, and with abusive schools we might recoil at being forced to periodically be with our tormentors. Forcing 16 year olds to socialize is stupid though.
      - jollybean 5y ago
        Because socialization is utterly and fundamentally critical to human development. We may not need to be with each other 8 hours a day, but that bit is a matter of pragmatism. FYI you are not 'forced'. If your parents want you to stay at home, they can do that. If they want the state to provide your education, it's 30 to a room. And of course, you can pay $50K/year to have 5 per class private school.
  - tagoregrtst 5y ago
    Im an introvert, Id happily only interact with my family (some of them), my wife’s family (fewer of them) and my two closest friends. But I wouldn't say Im normal. Far from it
FredPret 5y ago
I loathed every second of school, but society needs some sort of daycare facility so the parents can work though
- tomjuggler 5y ago
  They should have included the impact on parents in the study - although as someone pointed out, in 1918 there was a good chance of one parent being home full time, unlike today.
- closeparen 5y ago
  I am confident we could devise a system to keep children safe and nurtured during the workday which does not also strip them of dignity and brutalize them with busywork.
  - FredPret 5y ago
    I’m all ears; I’d heartily embrace such a system
jaza 5y ago
School is a game. If you master some winning strategies (whether they be getting good grades, being socially popular, being good at sports, etc), then you get through the game, and you're better prepared for the rest of the game of life.
- closeparen 5y ago
  A perfectly fine argument about the utility of schooling, but one which would also imply lockdown-related schooling losses are detrimental. Pandemic kids should be two years less able to play the game of life. That sounds bad!
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fosk 5y ago
School is like an interface that tries to work with a million different implementations (the students), but it only achieves to make them all average. It's a creativity killer and that's why creative people rarely are a good fit, most times their creativity is not encouraged, but it's being dismissed as "rebellious". How is this healthy for the kids? And how uniforming them is good for society? Sometimes I feel like school is more about power and control rather than really helping the students.
soared 5y ago
This opinion seems rather extreme.
jollybean 5y ago
I can barely fathom that I'm reading this on HN. School is probably the best thing possible for a 'bright' child who would likely wallow aimlessly without having developed their talents, social skills, broad knowledge and especially ability to focus consistently on things which may not pique their specific curiosity. I'm sure 'feral children' would engender the rare Mozart but at the imminent cost of massive loss in civility across all fields. With respect to the study, in 1918 literacy rates were low, Highschool graduation was probably not even 60%, and less than 5% went to College. Kids ability to work in factories or the family farm may not have been hampered. Kids not in school during that time, may have been very likely working in the family business or farm, learning relevant skills.
- closeparen 5y ago
  So pandemic kids will be two years more feral and two years less able to focus on what doesn’t interest them. All fields will experience two school-years loss of civility. That sounds bad! It doesn’t seem like you buy the premise in my statement (if indeed we can cut two years of school with no ill effects) so we don’t need to argue about the conclusion.

tagoregrtst 5y ago

The only thing worse than school is not being around kids your age. Also, as far as I can tell, “school sucks” is very much an Anglo thing. I went to primary school in English, in continental Europe, and in Latin America. The latter two were great, but my school in an English speaking country was awful, basically social Darwinism, and well described by Waters, Orwell and Hollywood.

jsiaajdsdaa 5y ago
Spent my whole child life being tormented by school bullies. Did drugs and alcohol in college. Studied history so as to not fail. Graduated, began programming on my own time, 9 years later I'm making $300,000 a year as a programmer. Only people I talk to are my wife, my mom, and a few people on Discord about 3d graphics. I can safely tell you that human interaction in the sense of "make 300 friends at school so that you aren't considered a freak or loner!" was never necessary, and in fact was an active burden.
- starik36 5y ago
  This might be the most "programmer" post I've seen on the site today.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jsiaajdsdaa 5y ago
    But I am a productive and responsible member of society and I have a good relationship with those who matter to me. I also volunteer my time online to those less fortunate. Why did I need to be hazed for 18 years?
    - BobbyJo 5y ago
      You didn't 'need' to be, you were just unlucky. Some people get the short straw. There is always some number of short straws, and some people have to get them.
      - closeparen 5y ago
        It’s a government institution, not a volcano. Everything about how it works is quite deliberate. Specific, identifiable human beings take positive actions to make sure it happens and make sure you personally are there, having it happen to you. This passive framing is bizarre.
- SCUSKU 5y ago
  I am certainly sorry for your past experiences with bullying, trying to meet expectations, and potentially using drugs and alcohol as a crutch. However, I think it may be worth reconsidering your position that only talking to or having relationships 2 people IRL is satisfactory. Precious negative experiences with people does not mean all people are bad. With effort, you will certainly find people who expand your worldview and enrich your life. Best wishes.
  - jsiaajdsdaa 5y ago
    Thanks for writing and I appreciate everything you've said :) I'm certainly not like, inherently distrustful of people or a shut in. Actually I'm quite talkative and find it pretty natural to talk to people. I just don't think that kids should have to be forced into the same building for so many years of their life. Voluntary school is great, but I don't think the trope is always true that homeschooled kids are "freaks and loners and nerds who will faceplant in the real world", which is my opinion on what the popular sentiment is here. I don't think the risks of in person school outweigh the benefits.
    - SCUSKU 5y ago
      Gotcha, I apologize if I came off a bit condescendingly, it's just hard to tell how people truly are based on a single internet comment. I just have friends who have really shut themselves in light of COVID, I think almost to their certain detriment. And I have found myself in similar patterns, and have recently begun correcting that and have been on a bit of a personal crusade to combat anti-socialism in the guise of introversion. But I digress. I was wondering if you elaborate on your position regarding homeschooling and the risks of in person school a bit more? I am curious to hear your perspective. Thanks!
- phs318u 5y ago
  If anyone has 300 people they call "friends", then they are not friends. Acquaintances perhaps.
- blarneystone 5y ago
  People have varying needs for human interaction. For most, this much interaction will result in some pretty severe serotonin deficiencies and debilitating depression. If you have very low social needs then all power to you, but it shouldn't be a template in any sense for the average person.
- BobbyJo 5y ago
  Do you think your situation is common or an outlier? If you think you're an outlier, then it's not super relevant. I was in the total opposite boat. I got bullied here and there (I was the classic gangly tall kid, still am at 35), but school was the sole source of normalcy in my life for most of my adolescence. I'd be willing to bet that the extremes on either end mostly cancel out, and, for the vast majority, school is a net positive because of the socialization and the opportunity to get information that isn't filtered through your parents.
- jollybean 5y ago
  It's a good thing that life is more than producing hyper focussed individuals who only want to 'program and chat on discord'.
  - jsiaajdsdaa 5y ago
    How does this translate to "as a result we must force all children to socialize together in person until they are 18"?
    - tagoregrtst 5y ago
      Children, universally as far as I can tell, want to be with other children. As we mature we want other things, more time alone, and with abusive schools we might recoil at being forced to periodically be with our tormentors. Forcing 16 year olds to socialize is stupid though.
    - jollybean 5y ago
      Because socialization is utterly and fundamentally critical to human development. We may not need to be with each other 8 hours a day, but that bit is a matter of pragmatism. FYI you are not 'forced'. If your parents want you to stay at home, they can do that. If they want the state to provide your education, it's 30 to a room. And of course, you can pay $50K/year to have 5 per class private school.
- tagoregrtst 5y ago
  Im an introvert, Id happily only interact with my family (some of them), my wife’s family (fewer of them) and my two closest friends. But I wouldn't say Im normal. Far from it

FredPret 5y ago

I loathed every second of school, but society needs some sort of daycare facility so the parents can work though

tomjuggler 5y ago
They should have included the impact on parents in the study - although as someone pointed out, in 1918 there was a good chance of one parent being home full time, unlike today.
closeparen 5y ago
I am confident we could devise a system to keep children safe and nurtured during the workday which does not also strip them of dignity and brutalize them with busywork.
- FredPret 5y ago
  I’m all ears; I’d heartily embrace such a system

jaza 5y ago

School is a game. If you master some winning strategies (whether they be getting good grades, being socially popular, being good at sports, etc), then you get through the game, and you're better prepared for the rest of the game of life.

closeparen 5y ago
A perfectly fine argument about the utility of schooling, but one which would also imply lockdown-related schooling losses are detrimental. Pandemic kids should be two years less able to play the game of life. That sounds bad!

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

fosk 5y ago

School is like an interface that tries to work with a million different implementations (the students), but it only achieves to make them all average. It's a creativity killer and that's why creative people rarely are a good fit, most times their creativity is not encouraged, but it's being dismissed as "rebellious". How is this healthy for the kids? And how uniforming them is good for society? Sometimes I feel like school is more about power and control rather than really helping the students.

soared 5y ago

This opinion seems rather extreme.

jollybean 5y ago

I can barely fathom that I'm reading this on HN. School is probably the best thing possible for a 'bright' child who would likely wallow aimlessly without having developed their talents, social skills, broad knowledge and especially ability to focus consistently on things which may not pique their specific curiosity. I'm sure 'feral children' would engender the rare Mozart but at the imminent cost of massive loss in civility across all fields. With respect to the study, in 1918 literacy rates were low, Highschool graduation was probably not even 60%, and less than 5% went to College. Kids ability to work in factories or the family farm may not have been hampered. Kids not in school during that time, may have been very likely working in the family business or farm, learning relevant skills.

closeparen 5y ago
So pandemic kids will be two years more feral and two years less able to focus on what doesn’t interest them. All fields will experience two school-years loss of civility. That sounds bad! It doesn’t seem like you buy the premise in my statement (if indeed we can cut two years of school with no ill effects) so we don’t need to argue about the conclusion.