4 ms·

>5. As far as I can tell, no one knows what to do about this. You could just, y'know, drop the mandates and whatnot.

voisin 5y ago
The protest is due to the _exemptions_ to the mandates (which applied only to long haul truckers) being removed. Are you suggesting all mask and vaccine mandates be removed or that a small portion of the populace (a small portion of the truckers that refuse to get vaccinated) be granted special privileges again?
- emerged 5y ago
  I wouldn’t consider the ability to work for a living, when you have no other viable alternatives, to be a special privilege. It should be the least a government provides.
  - voisin 5y ago
    “No other viable alternatives” is a funny way of phrasing getting a free, almost painless vaccination and wearing a mask. It is literally the least a person can do to show they have signed the social contract. I suppose it isn’t surprising at all that the same people that refuse to pay such low table stakes also show complete disdain for others by turning their protest into a 24/7 cacophony of 120dB horns blaring and racist signage.
    - effie 5y ago
      Getting the vaccine has health risks and it would mean a "kiss the ring" submission to untrusted power to many people. Bioethics is clearly on their side - forcing a human to undergo any medical procedure against their will supposedly to benefit other people is a violation of that human's basic rights.
      - voisin 5y ago
        Sure, that’s fine with me, but then if you choose to go against the common good then you shouldn’t have the same access to health care as someone that does. Our hospitals are filled with the unvaccinated infected. Plenty of people who followed the rules have seen their surgeries and other treatments postponed as a result.
        effie 5y ago
        But are they going against the common good? Maybe they are helping the common good, by choosing different health strategy and different politics from the rest. There are other ways to stay healthy than getting the vaccine, and it is good for the nation to have diversity in this. In any case, I agree in principle that limited resources of healthcare in hospitals should be spent wisely and fairly, e.g. in case of overload, put very old, or obviously bad lifestyle people on the backburner. Also, COVID is not the only health problem and postponing all surgeries/cancer treatments because of many COVID cases does not seem right. This is not a simple topic though.
    - ls15 5y ago
      > “No other viable alternatives” is a funny way of phrasing getting a free, almost painless vaccination and wearing a mask. It is literally the least a person can do to show they have signed the social contract. Hard disagree. The vaccines do not prevent transmission. There is no justification for asking people to get injected something if it is not for protecting the society from an infected individual. If mandates are about protecting individuals, then there need to be many more mandates: against smoking, unhealthy eating, unprotected sex, risky sport, stress and many more things that potentially lower people's lifespans or healthspans. I hope it is clear that this would overstep boundaries and would only be enforceable with dystopian surveillance. The free, almost painless vaccination could also be a free almost painless tattoo with a personalized QR code a few years down the road in order to make people easier to identify for enforcement of health mandates.
      - voisin 5y ago
        The vaccines reduce severity. The majority of people hospitalized are the unvaccinated. Preventing our hospitals from filling up is a valid public health initiative.
        ls15 5y ago
        Covid is only a small share of patients in hospitals. Many things prevent hospitals from filling up, such as quitting smoking, eating healthy, exercising, only having protected sex, quit riding a motocycle, doing regular breathing exercises, and many many other things. We don't mandate these, but many people do them on their own, because they want to live longer. Or they don't and maybe they die earlier, but society has no say in this. Vaccines are mandated in order to prevent the spread of the disease. If the vaccines do not do that job, then mandates are unethical, because they undermine bodily autonomy, while giving a false sense of security.
        mpweiher 5y ago
        > Covid is only a small share of patients in hospitals. Yes. Exactly Because the measures we have in place are working. Saying the measures are not needed because they are working exactly as intended is...odd.
- ls15 5y ago
  > Are you suggesting all mask and vaccine mandates be removed For the vaccine mandates, absoutely, because the vaccines are now mostly ineffective against transmission of the virus. There is no good justification for these mandates. https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/cdc-director-covid-vaccines-cant-prevent-transmission-anymore/ar-AASDndg https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/cdc-director-covid-... For comparison - the Czech Supreme Administrative Court just ruled (and ended vax passports for shopping): > “The measure cannot aim to indirectly force citizens to be vaccinated. This would make voluntary vaccination mandatory through an emergency vaccination measure, as unvaccinated people would have no choice but to be vaccinated if they wanted to live normally,” said NSS Judge Petr Mikeš https://praguemorning.cz/czech-government-cannot-indirectly-force-citizens-to-be-vaccinated-says-top-court/ https://praguemorning.cz/czech-government-cannot-indirectly-... Mask mandate make sense in some situations, because they are more effective at preventing transmission, but these need to be phased out at some point too.

The protest is due to the _exemptions_ to the mandates (which applied only to long haul truckers) being removed. Are you suggesting all mask and vaccine mandates be removed or that a small portion of the populace (a small portion of the truckers that refuse to get vaccinated) be granted special privileges again?

emerged 5y ago
I wouldn’t consider the ability to work for a living, when you have no other viable alternatives, to be a special privilege. It should be the least a government provides.
- voisin 5y ago
  “No other viable alternatives” is a funny way of phrasing getting a free, almost painless vaccination and wearing a mask. It is literally the least a person can do to show they have signed the social contract. I suppose it isn’t surprising at all that the same people that refuse to pay such low table stakes also show complete disdain for others by turning their protest into a 24/7 cacophony of 120dB horns blaring and racist signage.
  - effie 5y ago
    Getting the vaccine has health risks and it would mean a "kiss the ring" submission to untrusted power to many people. Bioethics is clearly on their side - forcing a human to undergo any medical procedure against their will supposedly to benefit other people is a violation of that human's basic rights.
    - voisin 5y ago
      Sure, that’s fine with me, but then if you choose to go against the common good then you shouldn’t have the same access to health care as someone that does. Our hospitals are filled with the unvaccinated infected. Plenty of people who followed the rules have seen their surgeries and other treatments postponed as a result.
      - effie 5y ago
        But are they going against the common good? Maybe they are helping the common good, by choosing different health strategy and different politics from the rest. There are other ways to stay healthy than getting the vaccine, and it is good for the nation to have diversity in this. In any case, I agree in principle that limited resources of healthcare in hospitals should be spent wisely and fairly, e.g. in case of overload, put very old, or obviously bad lifestyle people on the backburner. Also, COVID is not the only health problem and postponing all surgeries/cancer treatments because of many COVID cases does not seem right. This is not a simple topic though.
  - ls15 5y ago
    > “No other viable alternatives” is a funny way of phrasing getting a free, almost painless vaccination and wearing a mask. It is literally the least a person can do to show they have signed the social contract. Hard disagree. The vaccines do not prevent transmission. There is no justification for asking people to get injected something if it is not for protecting the society from an infected individual. If mandates are about protecting individuals, then there need to be many more mandates: against smoking, unhealthy eating, unprotected sex, risky sport, stress and many more things that potentially lower people's lifespans or healthspans. I hope it is clear that this would overstep boundaries and would only be enforceable with dystopian surveillance. The free, almost painless vaccination could also be a free almost painless tattoo with a personalized QR code a few years down the road in order to make people easier to identify for enforcement of health mandates.
    - voisin 5y ago
      The vaccines reduce severity. The majority of people hospitalized are the unvaccinated. Preventing our hospitals from filling up is a valid public health initiative.
      - ls15 5y ago
        Covid is only a small share of patients in hospitals. Many things prevent hospitals from filling up, such as quitting smoking, eating healthy, exercising, only having protected sex, quit riding a motocycle, doing regular breathing exercises, and many many other things. We don't mandate these, but many people do them on their own, because they want to live longer. Or they don't and maybe they die earlier, but society has no say in this. Vaccines are mandated in order to prevent the spread of the disease. If the vaccines do not do that job, then mandates are unethical, because they undermine bodily autonomy, while giving a false sense of security.
        mpweiher 5y ago
        > Covid is only a small share of patients in hospitals. Yes. Exactly Because the measures we have in place are working. Saying the measures are not needed because they are working exactly as intended is...odd.
ls15 5y ago
> Are you suggesting all mask and vaccine mandates be removed For the vaccine mandates, absoutely, because the vaccines are now mostly ineffective against transmission of the virus. There is no good justification for these mandates. https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/cdc-director-covid-vaccines-cant-prevent-transmission-anymore/ar-AASDndg https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/cdc-director-covid-... For comparison - the Czech Supreme Administrative Court just ruled (and ended vax passports for shopping): > “The measure cannot aim to indirectly force citizens to be vaccinated. This would make voluntary vaccination mandatory through an emergency vaccination measure, as unvaccinated people would have no choice but to be vaccinated if they wanted to live normally,” said NSS Judge Petr Mikeš https://praguemorning.cz/czech-government-cannot-indirectly-force-citizens-to-be-vaccinated-says-top-court/ https://praguemorning.cz/czech-government-cannot-indirectly-... Mask mandate make sense in some situations, because they are more effective at preventing transmission, but these need to be phased out at some point too.