6 ms·

There was a lot of work on microbiome and cancer immunotherapy... the latest study in the field published in the most prestigious journal there is [1] seemed to

by Gatsky 5y ago

There was a lot of work on microbiome and cancer immunotherapy... the latest study in the field published in the most prestigious journal there is [1] seemed to show that fibre intake was more important than any specific microbe. In fact they found that eating more fibre and taking probiotics resulted in worse outcomes than just eating more fibre alone. This was recapitulated in a mouse model: > Together, these data have important implications. We show that dietary fiber and probiotic use, factors known to affect the gut microbiome, are associated with differential outcomes to ICB. Although causality cannot be addressed from the observational human cohort, where unmeasured confounders may exist, our preclinical models support the hypothesis that dietary fiber and probiotics modulate the microbiome and that antitumor immunity is impaired in mice receiving a low-fiber diet and in those receiving probiotics—with suppression of intratumoral IFN-γ T cell responses in both cases. It would be a bit disappointing if the final conclusion from all this microbiome work was 'Eat more vegetables'... [1] https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aaz7015 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aaz7015

t8e56vd4ih 5y ago
a healthy microbiome should be self sustaining. why would it be useful to eat bacteria that is supposed to be present in the gut already anyway. what does make sense though is providing a favorable environment. for that it will be useful to provide certain substances on a regular basis. so, going from microbiome to fiber might make plenty of sense even from the microbiome perspective.
- hourislate 5y ago
  From the article: >The finding, which emerged from a study of how genetics and diet affect the microbiome, “is really solid proof that this association could have major clinical importance.” It seems genetics can play a role in some people having a healthy flora. Maybe their bodies can't convert a certain bacteria from food stuff efficiently, thus they are required to supplement.
- errcorrectcode 5y ago
  Not if you genocide it with antibiotics or your parents or environment didn't have it well in the first place. People may want to take a fecal sample before starting antibiotics to "reseed" themselves. Also, it will take time to map and analyze essential and harmful constituent species. Perhaps there will be the equivalent of "vitamin" essential bacterial for persons of particular genetic makeups and diets.
vbezhenar 5y ago
What about abuse of antibiotics? They are known to kill gut microbes.
- Gatsky 5y ago
  There are specific situations where probiotics can be helpful - antibiotic induced diarrhoea for example, prevention of traveller's diarrhoea is another.
enchiridion 5y ago
Interesting result about the fiber plus probiotic. To me that’s saying that’s your body mostly knows how to maintain a micro biome if given the right building blocks. I wonder how the immune system comes into play to actively shape the microbiome, vs our typical understanding of just “fighting bad bacteria”.
baxtr 5y ago
Why only more vegetables? Isn’t fiber also in some other food?
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Why only more vegetables? Isn’t fiber also in some other food? Fiber is in some other foods, but not at the same ratio of fiber to calories; given that calorie surplus is also a common source of health problems in the developed world, vegetables are generally the best fiber source to add.
- misja111 5y ago
  There are two different kinds of fibers: soluble and insoluble. The insoluble one is the most important for your gut and the one in the article. This fiber you will only find in vegetables and fruits, in particular in sturdy ones such as beans, nuts and full grains.
  - wtetzner 5y ago
    Isn’t soluble fiber what feeds your gut bacteria?
    - misja111 5y ago
      Your gut bacteria are already getting plenty of food, but to digest the food efficiently, they also need something to hold on to. This is the function of the insoluble fibers.
      - wtetzner 5y ago
        Do you have a source on this? It doesn't match my understanding.
- simondotau 5y ago
  The amount of fibre in vegetables is enormous compared to most other foods, especially including “high in fibre” manufactured foods.
nemo44x 5y ago
Fiber is so incredibly important and much of our food in the West doesn’t have much of it. We see colon cancers and diverticulitis in people in their 30’s and even late 20’s nowadays. This wasn’t the case years ago and it’s not the case in Asian or African countries. But we don’t think it’s genetic because we see diverticulitis in people from these parts of the world 10 years after moving to the West. It’s thought that these places consume more fiber by virtue of eating more roughage. Fiber + hydration is so important. You need to keep the waste moving. If it’s slow and hard on the gut lining you end up sounding these tissues opening them to disease.
- doublepg23 5y ago
  I've been tracking my food the past couple months and it's pretty eye opening how much fiber I've been lacking. Now taking supplements, but is there a food you'd recommend in particular? It's silly, especially to admit on this forum, but I found the Hidrate water bottle that tracks your water consumption actually increased my water intake loads as well.
  - MathCodeLove 5y ago
    Personally I like to eat sliced green bell pepper, carrots, celery, and tomatoes with lite ranch as both a snack and often breakfast/"desert". Not entirely sure exactly how much fiber you get from any of those foods, but pretty sure the green bell pepper and celery are pretty high in it.
    - doublepg23 5y ago
      Thank you!
  - jcynix 5y ago
    Besides fresh vegetables, I like oatmeal / porridge, freshly cooked with skimmed milk as a breakfast, which is a good start in the day. You can combine it with fresh fruit if you like. Or take a look at bircher muesli.
cwkoss 5y ago
Are insoluble and soluble fiber equivalent in this respect? My gut (pardon the pun) says insoluble is more important, but I'm not sure if that's true.
- throwaway2037 5y ago
  Wiki says: <<Soluble fiber (fermentable fiber or prebiotic fiber) – which dissolves in water – is generally fermented in the colon into gases and physiologically active by-products, such as short-chain fatty acids produced in the colon by gut bacteria. Examples are beta-glucans (in oats, barley, and mushrooms) and raw guar gum. Psyllium – a soluble, viscous, nonfermented fiber – is a bulking fiber that retains water as it moves through the digestive system, easing defecation. Soluble fiber is generally viscous and delays gastric emptying which, in humans, can result in an extended feeling of fullness.>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_fiber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_fiber It sounds like both soluble and insoluble fiber are important for different reasons.

by Gatsky 5y ago

t8e56vd4ih 5y ago

a healthy microbiome should be self sustaining. why would it be useful to eat bacteria that is supposed to be present in the gut already anyway. what does make sense though is providing a favorable environment. for that it will be useful to provide certain substances on a regular basis. so, going from microbiome to fiber might make plenty of sense even from the microbiome perspective.

hourislate 5y ago
From the article: >The finding, which emerged from a study of how genetics and diet affect the microbiome, “is really solid proof that this association could have major clinical importance.” It seems genetics can play a role in some people having a healthy flora. Maybe their bodies can't convert a certain bacteria from food stuff efficiently, thus they are required to supplement.
errcorrectcode 5y ago
Not if you genocide it with antibiotics or your parents or environment didn't have it well in the first place. People may want to take a fecal sample before starting antibiotics to "reseed" themselves. Also, it will take time to map and analyze essential and harmful constituent species. Perhaps there will be the equivalent of "vitamin" essential bacterial for persons of particular genetic makeups and diets.

vbezhenar 5y ago

What about abuse of antibiotics? They are known to kill gut microbes.

Gatsky 5y ago
There are specific situations where probiotics can be helpful - antibiotic induced diarrhoea for example, prevention of traveller's diarrhoea is another.

enchiridion 5y ago

Interesting result about the fiber plus probiotic. To me that’s saying that’s your body mostly knows how to maintain a micro biome if given the right building blocks. I wonder how the immune system comes into play to actively shape the microbiome, vs our typical understanding of just “fighting bad bacteria”.

baxtr 5y ago

Why only more vegetables? Isn’t fiber also in some other food?

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Why only more vegetables? Isn’t fiber also in some other food? Fiber is in some other foods, but not at the same ratio of fiber to calories; given that calorie surplus is also a common source of health problems in the developed world, vegetables are generally the best fiber source to add.
misja111 5y ago
There are two different kinds of fibers: soluble and insoluble. The insoluble one is the most important for your gut and the one in the article. This fiber you will only find in vegetables and fruits, in particular in sturdy ones such as beans, nuts and full grains.
- wtetzner 5y ago
  Isn’t soluble fiber what feeds your gut bacteria?
  - misja111 5y ago
    Your gut bacteria are already getting plenty of food, but to digest the food efficiently, they also need something to hold on to. This is the function of the insoluble fibers.
    - wtetzner 5y ago
      Do you have a source on this? It doesn't match my understanding.
simondotau 5y ago
The amount of fibre in vegetables is enormous compared to most other foods, especially including “high in fibre” manufactured foods.

nemo44x 5y ago

Fiber is so incredibly important and much of our food in the West doesn’t have much of it. We see colon cancers and diverticulitis in people in their 30’s and even late 20’s nowadays. This wasn’t the case years ago and it’s not the case in Asian or African countries. But we don’t think it’s genetic because we see diverticulitis in people from these parts of the world 10 years after moving to the West. It’s thought that these places consume more fiber by virtue of eating more roughage. Fiber + hydration is so important. You need to keep the waste moving. If it’s slow and hard on the gut lining you end up sounding these tissues opening them to disease.

doublepg23 5y ago
I've been tracking my food the past couple months and it's pretty eye opening how much fiber I've been lacking. Now taking supplements, but is there a food you'd recommend in particular? It's silly, especially to admit on this forum, but I found the Hidrate water bottle that tracks your water consumption actually increased my water intake loads as well.
- MathCodeLove 5y ago
  Personally I like to eat sliced green bell pepper, carrots, celery, and tomatoes with lite ranch as both a snack and often breakfast/"desert". Not entirely sure exactly how much fiber you get from any of those foods, but pretty sure the green bell pepper and celery are pretty high in it.
  - doublepg23 5y ago
    Thank you!
- jcynix 5y ago
  Besides fresh vegetables, I like oatmeal / porridge, freshly cooked with skimmed milk as a breakfast, which is a good start in the day. You can combine it with fresh fruit if you like. Or take a look at bircher muesli.

cwkoss 5y ago

Are insoluble and soluble fiber equivalent in this respect? My gut (pardon the pun) says insoluble is more important, but I'm not sure if that's true.

throwaway2037 5y ago
Wiki says: <<Soluble fiber (fermentable fiber or prebiotic fiber) – which dissolves in water – is generally fermented in the colon into gases and physiologically active by-products, such as short-chain fatty acids produced in the colon by gut bacteria. Examples are beta-glucans (in oats, barley, and mushrooms) and raw guar gum. Psyllium – a soluble, viscous, nonfermented fiber – is a bulking fiber that retains water as it moves through the digestive system, easing defecation. Soluble fiber is generally viscous and delays gastric emptying which, in humans, can result in an extended feeling of fullness.>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_fiber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_fiber It sounds like both soluble and insoluble fiber are important for different reasons.