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Cutting money from education? Education funding has expanded massively over the decades [1][2]. With, arguably, nothing to show for it. [1] https://www2.ed.gov

by sershe 5y ago

Cutting money from education? Education funding has expanded massively over the decades [1][2]. With, arguably, nothing to show for it. [1] https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/index.html#chart2 https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/index.html#ch... [2] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_236.55.asp?current=yes https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_236.55.a...

quantified 5y ago
Education funding and teacher pay are really different things. I’d look forward to a detailed chart of accounts that derive each of them.
- sershe 5y ago
  There's data for that; it's basically flat in constant dollars: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d18/tables/dt18_211.50.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d18/tables/dt18_211.50.a... Interestingly, private school teachers are paid even less: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.10.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.10.a... Given that, something about public schools must indeed be terrible for teachers too, not just for students and taxpayers ;)
bastawhiz 5y ago
That data doesn't look to be adjusted for inflation, no? 1990 dollars are worth essentially half of today's dollars, so those charts don't say very much, even if they only go to 2005. Edit: it's also the case that the population has grown by 50 million people since 1990, which would bring an expected increase of 15-20% in expenditure. Accounting for both, I'm surprised we don't spend more.
- granzymes 5y ago
  I glanced at the links, and there are inflation-adjusted figures included. See for example bullet 5 in the first link.
jimmygrapes 5y ago
What is the money being spent on? It's hard to get actual data on this down to the granular level of pens and paper. I've read tons of statements that it mostly goes to administrator salaries, various "initiatives" (but how does an initiative cost separate money? never answered) and infrastructure costs. I believe that's likely, but I also haven't seen raw data. Next question to me is: what actually needs funding? Teacher salaries, sure, easy argument. But then what? What supplies? Books, laptops, projectors, software licenses, crayons, play-doh, stencils, rulers, graph paper, craft paper, what? And how often?
- AvocadoPanic 5y ago
  Comparing my elementary school experience 80's to my children's (now); Technology and Curriculum materials are much more prevalent. I find the use of so many single use materials surprising. Most of the subjects won't have a textbook in the traditional sense, they've a 'math program' that includes a workbook, any number of handouts, worksheets, and often an application or website. Most of my textbooks were from the 60's, we made brown grocery bag bookcovers for them and were expected to return them with minimal wear. While this generates increased reoccurring revenue for the publisher, I'm unconvinced it's an improvement. What are the lifetime cost differences on chalkboards vs. smartboards or overhead projectors vs digital projectors. It's not like my kids don't have all the technology at home, chromebooks, tablets, etc. I don't think they need it school too, especially when often all they do with it is the app from the subscription they have in place of a textbook. I'd be dubious of any improved outcome claims.
- quantified 5y ago
  Back-to-school line at Office Depot, the guy ahead of me is a teacher buying class supplies from his pocket. So, let’s fund supplies.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  The huge increase in infrastructure costs are seriously under-appreciated. This is an article from 2002 about new schools being built in Baltimore. One for $14M and one for $13M. The article laments how much school construction costs are rising. https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2002-05-12-0205120252-story.html https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2002-05-12-02051202... This is an article from last April about two new schools being built in Baltimore. One for $53M and the other for over $100M. https://www.wbaltv.com/article/new-school-construction-northeastern-baltimore-county/36302404 https://www.wbaltv.com/article/new-school-construction-north... Sure, there has been some inflation since 2002, but not that much! Google tells me $13M in 2002 is only $20M in 2022. It's just insane.

by sershe 5y ago

quantified 5y ago

Education funding and teacher pay are really different things. I’d look forward to a detailed chart of accounts that derive each of them.

sershe 5y ago
There's data for that; it's basically flat in constant dollars: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d18/tables/dt18_211.50.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d18/tables/dt18_211.50.a... Interestingly, private school teachers are paid even less: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.10.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.10.a... Given that, something about public schools must indeed be terrible for teachers too, not just for students and taxpayers ;)

bastawhiz 5y ago

That data doesn't look to be adjusted for inflation, no? 1990 dollars are worth essentially half of today's dollars, so those charts don't say very much, even if they only go to 2005. Edit: it's also the case that the population has grown by 50 million people since 1990, which would bring an expected increase of 15-20% in expenditure. Accounting for both, I'm surprised we don't spend more.

granzymes 5y ago
I glanced at the links, and there are inflation-adjusted figures included. See for example bullet 5 in the first link.

jimmygrapes 5y ago

What is the money being spent on? It's hard to get actual data on this down to the granular level of pens and paper. I've read tons of statements that it mostly goes to administrator salaries, various "initiatives" (but how does an initiative cost separate money? never answered) and infrastructure costs. I believe that's likely, but I also haven't seen raw data. Next question to me is: what actually needs funding? Teacher salaries, sure, easy argument. But then what? What supplies? Books, laptops, projectors, software licenses, crayons, play-doh, stencils, rulers, graph paper, craft paper, what? And how often?

AvocadoPanic 5y ago
Comparing my elementary school experience 80's to my children's (now); Technology and Curriculum materials are much more prevalent. I find the use of so many single use materials surprising. Most of the subjects won't have a textbook in the traditional sense, they've a 'math program' that includes a workbook, any number of handouts, worksheets, and often an application or website. Most of my textbooks were from the 60's, we made brown grocery bag bookcovers for them and were expected to return them with minimal wear. While this generates increased reoccurring revenue for the publisher, I'm unconvinced it's an improvement. What are the lifetime cost differences on chalkboards vs. smartboards or overhead projectors vs digital projectors. It's not like my kids don't have all the technology at home, chromebooks, tablets, etc. I don't think they need it school too, especially when often all they do with it is the app from the subscription they have in place of a textbook. I'd be dubious of any improved outcome claims.
quantified 5y ago
Back-to-school line at Office Depot, the guy ahead of me is a teacher buying class supplies from his pocket. So, let’s fund supplies.
missedthecue 5y ago
The huge increase in infrastructure costs are seriously under-appreciated. This is an article from 2002 about new schools being built in Baltimore. One for $14M and one for $13M. The article laments how much school construction costs are rising. https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2002-05-12-0205120252-story.html https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2002-05-12-02051202... This is an article from last April about two new schools being built in Baltimore. One for $53M and the other for over $100M. https://www.wbaltv.com/article/new-school-construction-northeastern-baltimore-county/36302404 https://www.wbaltv.com/article/new-school-construction-north... Sure, there has been some inflation since 2002, but not that much! Google tells me $13M in 2002 is only $20M in 2022. It's just insane.