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British author, chef and campaigner Jack Monroe's been saying some interesting things recently regarding poverty and food price inflation [0]. She argues that t

by spzb 5y ago

British author, chef and campaigner Jack Monroe's been saying some interesting things recently regarding poverty and food price inflation [0]. She argues that those at the bottom of the income spectrum suffer a far higher percentage rate of inflation, in part because supermarkets just withdraw their cheapest priced ranges forcing the less well-off to spend more, even if the next highest price product has remained roughly the same price. She's working on a new measure of food price inflation named in honour of Terry Pratchett and with the blessing of his estate [1] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jan/22/were-pricing-the-poor-out-of-food-in-the-uk-thats-why-im-launching-my-own-price-index https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jan/22/were-pricing... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jan/26/terry-pratchett-jack-monroe-vimes-boots-poverty-index https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jan/26/terry-pratchet...

Terry_Roll 5y ago
The irony is that Ghrelin the hunger hormone increases intelligence. Its nature's way of helping mammals become innovative in obtaining food. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2805706/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2805706/ "Ghrelin also promotes rapid reorganization of synaptic terminals in the hypothalamus28, and in the hippocampus it promotes synapse formation in dendritic spines and LTP, which are paralleled by enhanced spatial learning and memory formation29." I am amazed at how much the financial system imitates what life would be like living in the wild 1000's of years ago.
- cptaj 5y ago
  While that may be true, I would caution about thinking that hunger promotes intelligence in the long term in any way. I'm not an expert but I would confidently bet that the effects of malnutrition on cognitive ability FAR outweigh this hormonal effect.
  - __s 5y ago
    Note that they're talking about a hormone that gives the feeling of hunger, rather than hunger as a result of malnutrition
    - Terry_Roll 5y ago
      Benzoic Acid and its derivatives (Sodium/Potassium/Calcium) Benzoate affect Leptin, another hunger/satiety hormone.
  - Terry_Roll 5y ago
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/fat-people-have-less-brain-power-than-thinner-counterparts-study-finds-a3294526.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/fat-people-have-less-b... Considering how obese the West is, is it any wonder why the West is losing its edge, especially the US? Now malnutrition is different to being hungry, you can be obese and suffering from malnutrition. A purified diet is malnutrition. Its why if you are in the US army and you get slammed in the can for punishment, you only get bottled water and a multi vitamin pill as your nutrition for the time you spend in there. Thats all you need to know to get your fighting spirit back!
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - ignoramous 5y ago
      > Considering how obese the West is, is it any wonder why the West is losing its edge...? Correlation doesn't equal causation. Fisher would go ballistic at such assertions.
      - Terry_Roll 5y ago
        Why do you think this is correlation?
        ignoramous 5y ago
        Obesity trending upwards since X West in decline since X+c Voilà, obesity = decline.
        Terry_Roll 5y ago
        Yes but there is science that backs it up and I'm not paid to convince you otherwise.
- hgomersall 5y ago
  Except it doesn't because what actually happens when people are in poverty is they can't escape for a whole litany of reasons that have nothing to do with intelligence: the stress of being borderline able to pay bills and having to work long hours mean they have no capacity to think about how to improve things, or even basics like healthy eating; they can't afford to buy ingredients in bulk so they're forced to buy much less efficiently and so spend more; the health effects of poverty, both direct and indirect put additional time and cost pressure on them; etc etc. Don't get me wrong, the fact that ghrelin may have an impact on intelligence is fascinating, I just don't think it has anything to say about poverty.
  - Terry_Roll 5y ago
    True there are a whole litany of reasons. I dont think anyone works harder than the self employed. I've done 80hrs straight, and I've not met anyone who has been at work for longer than that. Not parents, not nurses, coppers or soldiers, or cleaners. I've gone with out food for 18days, just water. And I'd do it again if I needed to. I've slept on the streets, had people want to beat me up but for their sake, I'm glad they didnt try! Stupidity really annoys me, but as noone ever gets their exam paper back and checks their answers against the text books, how can anyone claim to be qualified? An exam result is little more than a medal or some other form of social division with an element of social conformity.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  Huh, would this be noticeable from e.g. intermittent fasting?
  - Terry_Roll 5y ago
    So the problem with fasting is it depletes things like glutathione from the liver. Fast too much and the body will catabolise itself, ie loss of muscle mass and so on, plus things like ketosis acidosis can be a risk for some. The hygienists (1950's US based org headed by a bloke called Shelton) were into fasting and it was what Christians Lent was originally about. Now water is also a factor with fasting so if you take Islam's no food or drink during daylight hours, that type of fasting caused an increase in blood sugar levels due to the lack of fluids. When you have no food or drink parts of the immune system increase rapidly and will attack the body so you get into autoimmune disease territory. The world record is actually 382 days done in 1971 at the University of Dundee. Just water and electrolytes, but the bloke started from an obese state in the first place. He might still be alive today. There are risks with many things, not only eating (diabetes/protein rich depression) but different types of fasting. Even the paleo diet which is like a ketogenic dieting has its risks. So thats protein rich, but some chemicals like tryptophan will not be absorbed in the presence of other proteins, they compete in the gut. Copper & Zinc iirc also compete. Then there is the form so we have a gut enzyme which limits our ability to absorb ferric iron ie fe3 or iron oxide (the brown rust you get when you cook meet), but its possible to absorb lots of ferrous iron (fe2), but then too much iron can cause its own problems like internal bleeding. Ultimately it depends on what your goals are for intermittent fasting in the first place.
AussieWog93 5y ago
>supermarkets just withdraw their cheapest priced ranges As an Australian, that's really interesting to hear. In the past 5-10 years, we've seen an explosion in the availability of cheap, decent-ish quality "home brand" products in supermarkets and our media regularly runs stories arguing that certain foods (notably milk) have become too cheap for farmers to be able to reap a healthy profit.
- michaelt 5y ago
  UK supermarkets have some extremely cheap products - 13p (US$0.18) for a can of spaghetti in tomato sauce [1], 20p (US$0.27) for five meals worth of pasta [2]. They're so cheap I can't believe they make more than a penny or two of profit. And raising the price by even a few pennies is above the rate of inflation. And if they stop selling those super-cheap products? The next cheapest product is 3x the price. [1] https://groceries.asda.com/product/tinned-pasta/asda-smart-price-spaghetti-in-tomato-sauce/36646 https://groceries.asda.com/product/tinned-pasta/asda-smart-p... [2] https://groceries.asda.com/product/spaghetti-tagliatelle/asda-smart-price-spaghetti/392270 https://groceries.asda.com/product/spaghetti-tagliatelle/asd...
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    That's insane. The cheapest equivalent product over here would cost you 65c AUD (about US$0.50). I'm not even sure 13p would cover the cost of the empty can!
  - kingcharles 5y ago
    I was watching a video the other day of a Brit cooking for a quid a day. I was amazed by the price of bread in Tescos. I can't find a loaf near me for less than $3. I rely mostly on the kindness of strangers to feed me. I eat whatever leftovers I find. I'd love to go to a food bank, but I'm on house arrest which only allows me to go to one specific grocery store and back. I would happily Dumpster dive if I could. There is so much food waste in the world.
    - everforward 5y ago
abakker 5y ago
I think that argument may be right, but it isn’t that groundbreaking. An important point here is that every cost is regressive for the poor. The poorer you are the worse any cost is. As a result, rising prices hurt the poor more, and low quality cheap items end up hurting the poor more. But; it is obvious to say this. There’s no will to fix these problems.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > every cost A good salesman, contractor, etc., will size you up based on your clothes/car/house and will adjust their prices accordingly.
  - clove 5y ago
    I've heard this said quite often but don't believe it to be effective from my personal experience. Granted, the majority of my adult life has been in Asia. But the millionaires I know dress like utter slobs and live in humble residences. (One drove an Aston Martin, but I didn't see his car until we became very close - maybe one or two years after becoming friends.)
- robocat 5y ago
  Off-topic, but I am surprised how many regressive costs there are to having money: insurance, healthcare, legal costs, regressive government policies, advisors, retirement savings, hanging with peers of similar wealth means expensive habits... The big difference with having wealth is how much agency I have over where I spend my time, compared with friends on minimum wage. I have also lived with friends on the sickness benefit (somewhat by their choice), and they had relatively lots of time to spend as they wish compared with most employees (middle class or working class). In New Zealand you may have more disposable income on the benefit than you do working for minimum wages.
anitil 5y ago
I heard them on an episode of 'More Or Less' making their case as well [0] [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0013r9w https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0013r9w

by spzb 5y ago

Terry_Roll 5y ago

The irony is that Ghrelin the hunger hormone increases intelligence. Its nature's way of helping mammals become innovative in obtaining food. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2805706/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2805706/ "Ghrelin also promotes rapid reorganization of synaptic terminals in the hypothalamus28, and in the hippocampus it promotes synapse formation in dendritic spines and LTP, which are paralleled by enhanced spatial learning and memory formation29." I am amazed at how much the financial system imitates what life would be like living in the wild 1000's of years ago.

cptaj 5y ago
While that may be true, I would caution about thinking that hunger promotes intelligence in the long term in any way. I'm not an expert but I would confidently bet that the effects of malnutrition on cognitive ability FAR outweigh this hormonal effect.
- __s 5y ago
  Note that they're talking about a hormone that gives the feeling of hunger, rather than hunger as a result of malnutrition
  - Terry_Roll 5y ago
    Benzoic Acid and its derivatives (Sodium/Potassium/Calcium) Benzoate affect Leptin, another hunger/satiety hormone.
- Terry_Roll 5y ago
  https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/fat-people-have-less-brain-power-than-thinner-counterparts-study-finds-a3294526.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/fat-people-have-less-b... Considering how obese the West is, is it any wonder why the West is losing its edge, especially the US? Now malnutrition is different to being hungry, you can be obese and suffering from malnutrition. A purified diet is malnutrition. Its why if you are in the US army and you get slammed in the can for punishment, you only get bottled water and a multi vitamin pill as your nutrition for the time you spend in there. Thats all you need to know to get your fighting spirit back!
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ignoramous 5y ago
    > Considering how obese the West is, is it any wonder why the West is losing its edge...? Correlation doesn't equal causation. Fisher would go ballistic at such assertions.
    - Terry_Roll 5y ago
      Why do you think this is correlation?
      - ignoramous 5y ago
        Obesity trending upwards since X West in decline since X+c Voilà, obesity = decline.
        Terry_Roll 5y ago
        Yes but there is science that backs it up and I'm not paid to convince you otherwise.
hgomersall 5y ago
Except it doesn't because what actually happens when people are in poverty is they can't escape for a whole litany of reasons that have nothing to do with intelligence: the stress of being borderline able to pay bills and having to work long hours mean they have no capacity to think about how to improve things, or even basics like healthy eating; they can't afford to buy ingredients in bulk so they're forced to buy much less efficiently and so spend more; the health effects of poverty, both direct and indirect put additional time and cost pressure on them; etc etc. Don't get me wrong, the fact that ghrelin may have an impact on intelligence is fascinating, I just don't think it has anything to say about poverty.
- Terry_Roll 5y ago
  True there are a whole litany of reasons. I dont think anyone works harder than the self employed. I've done 80hrs straight, and I've not met anyone who has been at work for longer than that. Not parents, not nurses, coppers or soldiers, or cleaners. I've gone with out food for 18days, just water. And I'd do it again if I needed to. I've slept on the streets, had people want to beat me up but for their sake, I'm glad they didnt try! Stupidity really annoys me, but as noone ever gets their exam paper back and checks their answers against the text books, how can anyone claim to be qualified? An exam result is little more than a medal or some other form of social division with an element of social conformity.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
Huh, would this be noticeable from e.g. intermittent fasting?
- Terry_Roll 5y ago
  So the problem with fasting is it depletes things like glutathione from the liver. Fast too much and the body will catabolise itself, ie loss of muscle mass and so on, plus things like ketosis acidosis can be a risk for some. The hygienists (1950's US based org headed by a bloke called Shelton) were into fasting and it was what Christians Lent was originally about. Now water is also a factor with fasting so if you take Islam's no food or drink during daylight hours, that type of fasting caused an increase in blood sugar levels due to the lack of fluids. When you have no food or drink parts of the immune system increase rapidly and will attack the body so you get into autoimmune disease territory. The world record is actually 382 days done in 1971 at the University of Dundee. Just water and electrolytes, but the bloke started from an obese state in the first place. He might still be alive today. There are risks with many things, not only eating (diabetes/protein rich depression) but different types of fasting. Even the paleo diet which is like a ketogenic dieting has its risks. So thats protein rich, but some chemicals like tryptophan will not be absorbed in the presence of other proteins, they compete in the gut. Copper & Zinc iirc also compete. Then there is the form so we have a gut enzyme which limits our ability to absorb ferric iron ie fe3 or iron oxide (the brown rust you get when you cook meet), but its possible to absorb lots of ferrous iron (fe2), but then too much iron can cause its own problems like internal bleeding. Ultimately it depends on what your goals are for intermittent fasting in the first place.

AussieWog93 5y ago

>supermarkets just withdraw their cheapest priced ranges As an Australian, that's really interesting to hear. In the past 5-10 years, we've seen an explosion in the availability of cheap, decent-ish quality "home brand" products in supermarkets and our media regularly runs stories arguing that certain foods (notably milk) have become too cheap for farmers to be able to reap a healthy profit.

michaelt 5y ago
UK supermarkets have some extremely cheap products - 13p (US$0.18) for a can of spaghetti in tomato sauce [1], 20p (US$0.27) for five meals worth of pasta [2]. They're so cheap I can't believe they make more than a penny or two of profit. And raising the price by even a few pennies is above the rate of inflation. And if they stop selling those super-cheap products? The next cheapest product is 3x the price. [1] https://groceries.asda.com/product/tinned-pasta/asda-smart-price-spaghetti-in-tomato-sauce/36646 https://groceries.asda.com/product/tinned-pasta/asda-smart-p... [2] https://groceries.asda.com/product/spaghetti-tagliatelle/asda-smart-price-spaghetti/392270 https://groceries.asda.com/product/spaghetti-tagliatelle/asd...
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  That's insane. The cheapest equivalent product over here would cost you 65c AUD (about US$0.50). I'm not even sure 13p would cover the cost of the empty can!
- kingcharles 5y ago
  I was watching a video the other day of a Brit cooking for a quid a day. I was amazed by the price of bread in Tescos. I can't find a loaf near me for less than $3. I rely mostly on the kindness of strangers to feed me. I eat whatever leftovers I find. I'd love to go to a food bank, but I'm on house arrest which only allows me to go to one specific grocery store and back. I would happily Dumpster dive if I could. There is so much food waste in the world.
  - everforward 5y ago

abakker 5y ago

I think that argument may be right, but it isn’t that groundbreaking. An important point here is that every cost is regressive for the poor. The poorer you are the worse any cost is. As a result, rising prices hurt the poor more, and low quality cheap items end up hurting the poor more. But; it is obvious to say this. There’s no will to fix these problems.

WalterBright 5y ago
> every cost A good salesman, contractor, etc., will size you up based on your clothes/car/house and will adjust their prices accordingly.
- clove 5y ago
  I've heard this said quite often but don't believe it to be effective from my personal experience. Granted, the majority of my adult life has been in Asia. But the millionaires I know dress like utter slobs and live in humble residences. (One drove an Aston Martin, but I didn't see his car until we became very close - maybe one or two years after becoming friends.)
robocat 5y ago
Off-topic, but I am surprised how many regressive costs there are to having money: insurance, healthcare, legal costs, regressive government policies, advisors, retirement savings, hanging with peers of similar wealth means expensive habits... The big difference with having wealth is how much agency I have over where I spend my time, compared with friends on minimum wage. I have also lived with friends on the sickness benefit (somewhat by their choice), and they had relatively lots of time to spend as they wish compared with most employees (middle class or working class). In New Zealand you may have more disposable income on the benefit than you do working for minimum wages.

anitil 5y ago

I heard them on an episode of 'More Or Less' making their case as well [0] [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0013r9w https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0013r9w