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Tangential: Is there any evidence that pro biotic foods or supplements can increase gut health? Given the evident importance of gut health, I wonder whether it'

Tangential: Is there any evidence that pro biotic foods or supplements can increase gut health? Given the evident importance of gut health, I wonder whether it's worth using something like this, to grab a random example: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Restored-Bio-Cultures/dp/B082SZXBF2/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=multi+strain+biotic&qid=1644174615&sprefix=multi+strai%2Caps%2C90&sr=8-5 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Restored-Bio-Cultures/dp/B082SZXBF2...

everybodyknows 5y ago
Anecdata: Tried various probiotics, no help. Pre-biotics however, have been huge. Search for "resistant starch".
- pknight 5y ago
  What was your diet like when you were taking them? It's been observed in some studies that delivered mixed results that responders had better diets (i.e. more bacteria friendly components in the diet such as indigestible carbs from vegetables/legumes/fruit etc) whereas non-responders had weaker diets in terms of providing the gut microbes nutrients.
  - everybodyknows 5y ago
    Diet is now generally low-FODMAP, emphasis on reducing fructose, glucose, and sugar alcohols e.g. sorbitol, erythritol, to which I seem especially sensitive -- this may be atypical among IBS patients.
- asdfman123 5y ago
  The best treatment for my own ADHD, depression and anxiety is living a healthy lifestyle, across the board, full stop. It means regular exercise, 6 hours of cardio a week, eating healthy, meditating, spending time in the sun, etc. etc. (And anti-depressants/therapy, which play an important role too.) Of course, it's too much to tell someone struggling to do all those things, but if you can work towards that, I strongly recommend it. I've had to declare war on my depression and ADHD because I can't afford to have it in my life anymore. At some point perhaps the science will catch up and explain precisely how these things help, but until then, I feel like you have to take the ancient approach of observing people who have things figured out and emulating them. (And I say this as someone who is very much pro-science.)
dade_ 5y ago
Sauerkraut is simple to make and cabbage is cheap. https://www.livestrong.com/article/413921-does-sauerkraut-have-all-the-probiotics-i-need/ https://www.livestrong.com/article/413921-does-sauerkraut-ha...
- MikeDelta 5y ago
  Or Kimchi if you're into Korean food.
  - umeshunni 5y ago
    Do you have an easy to make recipe?
    - dekken_ 5y ago
      https://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make-easy-kimchi-at-home-189390 https://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make-easy-kimchi-at-home-18... good base to build from, it didn't use to be so spammy tho
    - OJFord 5y ago
      Not GP and don't have one to suggest, but as you're asking for 'easy' (and at risk of stating the obvious, but only once you know I suppose) - ignore anything that says something like 'refigerate for 30mins and enjoy'. Or don't, I'm not denying quick such er salads can taste great, just that if what you want is a fermented or pickled product, that takes time. (And much longer if at all in the fridge - that's their purpose!) A 'proper' recipe for sauerkraut for example will tell you something on the order of weeks at minimum, and it's done when you like the taste. Kimchi I think is typically fermented for longer, more like months or over a year (not including any transferred to the next batch).
    - arrosenberg 5y ago
      Most lactofermented foods are: Main ingredient, spices, a few tbsp of salt. Add to sterile jar, fill with water (add a glass weight to the top if needed to keep everything submerged) and leave in a dark cabinet for a few weeks. Trial and error to get the flavor the way you want it, but that's basically it. If you see little air bubbles forming near the bottom after 2-4 days, you have a live culture.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Probiotic and gut biome research is all over the place. It’s possible to find some studies showing correlations, but it’s harder to find successful replications of those studies. Some probiotics have been shown to temporarily alter gut flora, but it usually reverts after the probiotic is stopped. Dietary and activity changes are generally good at improving the biome. It doesn’t help that one of the commercial guy biome measuring companies basically turned out to be fraudulent a few years ago. Even some of the public efforts to measure correlations are suspect or bunk because they relied on these services.
happylion0801 5y ago
As a fellow comment says - its all over the place and kind of hard to say, see [1] saying they are useless but lots of studies saying they are useful . Personally as someone with IBS, I have tried many probiotics over the years and have mixed results - most of them were useless but for some time I found one or 2 that worked but I couldnt say for sure if they worked due to other factors (for e.g generally healthier food, lifestyle, mindset etc). You would have to try it out for weeks to see their effect (according to studies that say it work). The doctors I spoke to though gave me strong probiotics (>100 billion CFU, for e.g something like [2]). I found anything that had 1 or 10 billion CFU to be pretty much useless. I think you should work on your diet before taking probiotics. I dont think I am lactose intolerant, milk gives me bad bloating but yogurt doesnt. Yogurt worked for me over the course of weeks, kefir and sauerkrat gave me mega-bloating. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45434753 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45434753 [2] https://www.amazon.com/Visbiome-Potency-Probiotic-Shipped-Shown/dp/B06XDBD9T9/ https://www.amazon.com/Visbiome-Potency-Probiotic-Shipped-Sh...
- aussieguy1234 5y ago
  Not sure if you have heard of the low FODMAP diet? Its now the standard treatment for IBS. The theory is certain bacteria ferment FODMAPS into gas and water which leads to the symptoms. They don't know which bacteria yet but going low fodmap is now a well researched and accepted treatment. Everyone is different but personally, I'm able to tolerate everything except Fructans (one of several types of FODMAPS). So no garlic, onion or wheat for me. https://www.monashfodmap.com/ibs-central/i-have-ibs/starting-the-low-fodmap-diet/ https://www.monashfodmap.com/ibs-central/i-have-ibs/starting...
  - dan353hehe 5y ago
    I was skeptical of this when I first heard of it several years ago. It sounded just like every other popular diet does: “Just (don’t) eat this certain food, and you will feel amazing!” But I have several family members on it right now, and they all report feeling WAY better. And this is after years of dealing with IBS type problems too.
tharkun__ 5y ago
Another anecdata point: I used be lethargic, couldn't get myself to do anything but be on the sofa. I would get horrible migraine headaches if drinking alcohol or even alcohol free beer or eat certain foods. I self-diagnosed histamine intolerance through trial and error. I tried multiple pro-biotic combinations. An easy one I tried in the beginning was simply some Danone Actimel the family had in the fridge anyway. I can attest to the fact that it contains live bacteria (a strain that makes lots of histamines) that do make it to the gut because it gave me the horrible migraine headache as would Sauerkraut actually. Researched what strains don't create lots of histamine. I landed on Garden of Life - Primal Defense Ultra. What I think made the difference is that it contains Bacillus subtilis. I say that because I tried two or three others that had largely the same makeup of strains but none had that particular bacterium. It's a soil based bacterium which you might get from eating your own cabbage you grew in the garden as well. Almost everything else just has various different strains of lactobacilli. Taking 3 capsules a day I felt like crap for 2 weeks (no headaches, just feeling sick, like a bad cold) and then things got better. I am able to drink alcohol again (I'll get a hangover headache like anyone would if I drink too much but it's not longer a day long migraine from just sipping 10ml) and eat anything I want to in any quantity. I still take one in the morning and one in the evening and I put one into the Sauerkraut I make. YMMV as always, not a doctor, try at your own risk, not affiliated etc :)
- manmal 5y ago
  Really interesting indeed! I just found this paper on B. subtilis from November: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34630666/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34630666/ Reducing intestinal permeability is a highly desirable effect.
  - csdvrx 5y ago
    It's the same bacteria found in Natto
- itronitron 5y ago
  Thanks for sharing this, most of your experience sounds similar to those of a friend of mine (Yokult gives them migraines) although they haven't yet tried Bacillus subtillis.
newsclues 5y ago
https://pendulumlife.com/pages/science https://pendulumlife.com/pages/science From the maker but I heard about it on a podcast and was convinced.
kazishariar 5y ago
[dead]
throw_me_up 5y ago
Eat fiber. Meet the recommended amount and eat a diverse set of fiber which will feed different microbes in the gut. It will take some time for the gut to adjust to the new levels though. Expect gas, cramping, etc for a few days.
- EL_Loco 5y ago
  Do you advise just fiber from natural foods, or do you take a fiber supplement (like those that come in powder form)? I guess the supplement route won't give me the diverse fiber types you mention, am I right?
  - zargon 5y ago
    Grandparent said eat, not supplement. Eating nutritionless food and then trying to backfill with supplementation is counter-productive.
car 5y ago
Rather than using these processed foods, one should provide the gut microbiome with “food” in the form of fiber from whole plant foods, i.e. not ‘fiber’ supplements like Metamucil. Lots of accessible information can be found at https://nutritionfacts.org https://nutritionfacts.org.
pknight 5y ago
I've come across plenty of evidence in the literature but there are lot of variables that can prevent any positive effects from taking place. If you're taking probiotic supplements in isolation and the rest of your diet is suboptimal in terms of bacteria-friendly nutrients, it's unlikely that you'll get results. It could be the case that many people are throwing money away if they're taking probiotic supplements without addressing their diet and lifestyle. There's so much variety between people, one formulation for one person might work well for one person but have negative effects on another even if they have a supportive diet and lifestyle. People might simply have to trial multiple formulas that have the right mix of strains before they find one that works for them. Prebiotic foods seem to have more consistent results on gut health, according to some studies. (not medical/health advice disclaimer)
CodeGlitch 5y ago
I've always been prescribed them by doctors after taking antibiotics... As you guessed it the guy microbes are killed off by the medication. Well that's the theory anyway...

everybodyknows 5y ago

Anecdata: Tried various probiotics, no help. Pre-biotics however, have been huge. Search for "resistant starch".

pknight 5y ago
What was your diet like when you were taking them? It's been observed in some studies that delivered mixed results that responders had better diets (i.e. more bacteria friendly components in the diet such as indigestible carbs from vegetables/legumes/fruit etc) whereas non-responders had weaker diets in terms of providing the gut microbes nutrients.
- everybodyknows 5y ago
  Diet is now generally low-FODMAP, emphasis on reducing fructose, glucose, and sugar alcohols e.g. sorbitol, erythritol, to which I seem especially sensitive -- this may be atypical among IBS patients.
asdfman123 5y ago
The best treatment for my own ADHD, depression and anxiety is living a healthy lifestyle, across the board, full stop. It means regular exercise, 6 hours of cardio a week, eating healthy, meditating, spending time in the sun, etc. etc. (And anti-depressants/therapy, which play an important role too.) Of course, it's too much to tell someone struggling to do all those things, but if you can work towards that, I strongly recommend it. I've had to declare war on my depression and ADHD because I can't afford to have it in my life anymore. At some point perhaps the science will catch up and explain precisely how these things help, but until then, I feel like you have to take the ancient approach of observing people who have things figured out and emulating them. (And I say this as someone who is very much pro-science.)

dade_ 5y ago

Sauerkraut is simple to make and cabbage is cheap. https://www.livestrong.com/article/413921-does-sauerkraut-have-all-the-probiotics-i-need/ https://www.livestrong.com/article/413921-does-sauerkraut-ha...

MikeDelta 5y ago
Or Kimchi if you're into Korean food.
- umeshunni 5y ago
  Do you have an easy to make recipe?
  - dekken_ 5y ago
    https://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make-easy-kimchi-at-home-189390 https://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make-easy-kimchi-at-home-18... good base to build from, it didn't use to be so spammy tho
  - OJFord 5y ago
    Not GP and don't have one to suggest, but as you're asking for 'easy' (and at risk of stating the obvious, but only once you know I suppose) - ignore anything that says something like 'refigerate for 30mins and enjoy'. Or don't, I'm not denying quick such er salads can taste great, just that if what you want is a fermented or pickled product, that takes time. (And much longer if at all in the fridge - that's their purpose!) A 'proper' recipe for sauerkraut for example will tell you something on the order of weeks at minimum, and it's done when you like the taste. Kimchi I think is typically fermented for longer, more like months or over a year (not including any transferred to the next batch).
  - arrosenberg 5y ago
    Most lactofermented foods are: Main ingredient, spices, a few tbsp of salt. Add to sterile jar, fill with water (add a glass weight to the top if needed to keep everything submerged) and leave in a dark cabinet for a few weeks. Trial and error to get the flavor the way you want it, but that's basically it. If you see little air bubbles forming near the bottom after 2-4 days, you have a live culture.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

Probiotic and gut biome research is all over the place. It’s possible to find some studies showing correlations, but it’s harder to find successful replications of those studies. Some probiotics have been shown to temporarily alter gut flora, but it usually reverts after the probiotic is stopped. Dietary and activity changes are generally good at improving the biome. It doesn’t help that one of the commercial guy biome measuring companies basically turned out to be fraudulent a few years ago. Even some of the public efforts to measure correlations are suspect or bunk because they relied on these services.

happylion0801 5y ago

As a fellow comment says - its all over the place and kind of hard to say, see [1] saying they are useless but lots of studies saying they are useful . Personally as someone with IBS, I have tried many probiotics over the years and have mixed results - most of them were useless but for some time I found one or 2 that worked but I couldnt say for sure if they worked due to other factors (for e.g generally healthier food, lifestyle, mindset etc). You would have to try it out for weeks to see their effect (according to studies that say it work). The doctors I spoke to though gave me strong probiotics (>100 billion CFU, for e.g something like [2]). I found anything that had 1 or 10 billion CFU to be pretty much useless. I think you should work on your diet before taking probiotics. I dont think I am lactose intolerant, milk gives me bad bloating but yogurt doesnt. Yogurt worked for me over the course of weeks, kefir and sauerkrat gave me mega-bloating. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45434753 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45434753 [2] https://www.amazon.com/Visbiome-Potency-Probiotic-Shipped-Shown/dp/B06XDBD9T9/ https://www.amazon.com/Visbiome-Potency-Probiotic-Shipped-Sh...

aussieguy1234 5y ago
Not sure if you have heard of the low FODMAP diet? Its now the standard treatment for IBS. The theory is certain bacteria ferment FODMAPS into gas and water which leads to the symptoms. They don't know which bacteria yet but going low fodmap is now a well researched and accepted treatment. Everyone is different but personally, I'm able to tolerate everything except Fructans (one of several types of FODMAPS). So no garlic, onion or wheat for me. https://www.monashfodmap.com/ibs-central/i-have-ibs/starting-the-low-fodmap-diet/ https://www.monashfodmap.com/ibs-central/i-have-ibs/starting...
- dan353hehe 5y ago
  I was skeptical of this when I first heard of it several years ago. It sounded just like every other popular diet does: “Just (don’t) eat this certain food, and you will feel amazing!” But I have several family members on it right now, and they all report feeling WAY better. And this is after years of dealing with IBS type problems too.

tharkun__ 5y ago

Another anecdata point: I used be lethargic, couldn't get myself to do anything but be on the sofa. I would get horrible migraine headaches if drinking alcohol or even alcohol free beer or eat certain foods. I self-diagnosed histamine intolerance through trial and error. I tried multiple pro-biotic combinations. An easy one I tried in the beginning was simply some Danone Actimel the family had in the fridge anyway. I can attest to the fact that it contains live bacteria (a strain that makes lots of histamines) that do make it to the gut because it gave me the horrible migraine headache as would Sauerkraut actually. Researched what strains don't create lots of histamine. I landed on Garden of Life - Primal Defense Ultra. What I think made the difference is that it contains Bacillus subtilis. I say that because I tried two or three others that had largely the same makeup of strains but none had that particular bacterium. It's a soil based bacterium which you might get from eating your own cabbage you grew in the garden as well. Almost everything else just has various different strains of lactobacilli. Taking 3 capsules a day I felt like crap for 2 weeks (no headaches, just feeling sick, like a bad cold) and then things got better. I am able to drink alcohol again (I'll get a hangover headache like anyone would if I drink too much but it's not longer a day long migraine from just sipping 10ml) and eat anything I want to in any quantity. I still take one in the morning and one in the evening and I put one into the Sauerkraut I make. YMMV as always, not a doctor, try at your own risk, not affiliated etc :)

manmal 5y ago
Really interesting indeed! I just found this paper on B. subtilis from November: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34630666/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34630666/ Reducing intestinal permeability is a highly desirable effect.
- csdvrx 5y ago
  It's the same bacteria found in Natto
itronitron 5y ago
Thanks for sharing this, most of your experience sounds similar to those of a friend of mine (Yokult gives them migraines) although they haven't yet tried Bacillus subtillis.

newsclues 5y ago

https://pendulumlife.com/pages/science https://pendulumlife.com/pages/science From the maker but I heard about it on a podcast and was convinced.

kazishariar 5y ago

[dead]

throw_me_up 5y ago

Eat fiber. Meet the recommended amount and eat a diverse set of fiber which will feed different microbes in the gut. It will take some time for the gut to adjust to the new levels though. Expect gas, cramping, etc for a few days.

EL_Loco 5y ago
Do you advise just fiber from natural foods, or do you take a fiber supplement (like those that come in powder form)? I guess the supplement route won't give me the diverse fiber types you mention, am I right?
- zargon 5y ago
  Grandparent said eat, not supplement. Eating nutritionless food and then trying to backfill with supplementation is counter-productive.

car 5y ago

Rather than using these processed foods, one should provide the gut microbiome with “food” in the form of fiber from whole plant foods, i.e. not ‘fiber’ supplements like Metamucil. Lots of accessible information can be found at https://nutritionfacts.org https://nutritionfacts.org.

pknight 5y ago

I've come across plenty of evidence in the literature but there are lot of variables that can prevent any positive effects from taking place. If you're taking probiotic supplements in isolation and the rest of your diet is suboptimal in terms of bacteria-friendly nutrients, it's unlikely that you'll get results. It could be the case that many people are throwing money away if they're taking probiotic supplements without addressing their diet and lifestyle. There's so much variety between people, one formulation for one person might work well for one person but have negative effects on another even if they have a supportive diet and lifestyle. People might simply have to trial multiple formulas that have the right mix of strains before they find one that works for them. Prebiotic foods seem to have more consistent results on gut health, according to some studies. (not medical/health advice disclaimer)

CodeGlitch 5y ago

I've always been prescribed them by doctors after taking antibiotics... As you guessed it the guy microbes are killed off by the medication. Well that's the theory anyway...