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Zero punishment is quite new. We are seeing the results of the first generation raised in such an environment. We were well down this path when I graduated in

by phil21 5y ago

Zero punishment is quite new. We are seeing the results of the first generation raised in such an environment. We were well down this path when I graduated in '99, and went full steam ahead during my kid's primary school career. You either escaped to a (private or suburban) school not full of juvenile delinquents who had parents that still cared, or you simply gave up on having your child have an actual education. The inner city school I had to attend in 1998 was more or less a daycare even back then, and the anecdotes I hear today have only gone further in that direction.

watwut 5y ago
Young people are better behaved now then at periods you talk about. Drugs abuse goes down. Young people commit less violent crime. They drink less alcohol. They even get pregnant less often. Young people now literally behave better wherever you look. The generation that grew in 90ties just was not better behaved.
- phil21 5y ago
  > The generation that grew in 90ties just was not better behaved. I'm not talking about better behaved. I'm talking about better behaved in school, or you got expelled very quickly. That left others who were there to learn (or at least not to be disruptive) move forward in peace. I have no opinion on if kids were better behaved outside the classroom - likely not, having grown up during that time. A single kid can ruin an entire semester for 40 kids in the classroom. I've personally watched it happen, and there was nothing the teacher could do. Averages don't matter in this situation - only outliers do. I'd go back to a "rougher" generation that learns to behave when appropriate (and those that don't learn, get removed) any day of the week over what we currently have in the average urban public school system. Edit: Heck, I got suspended from a couple classes in high school due to attendance issues. Rightfully so since I was holding back other students on group projects and the like. Today that would be utterly unheard of in that same school system.
  - watwut 5y ago
    Except that, it does not seem to be the case. There is absolutely nothing to suggest kids were better behaved in schools. The rougher generation did not behaved better where appropriate. Even issues I mentioned were about them misbehaving when not appropriate. You just idealize own generation, that is all. Which is odd, because at the time superpredators panic was going on and people fretted.
    - phil21 5y ago
      > You just idealize own generation, that is all. Which is odd, because at the time superpredators panic was going on and people fretted. I still believe we're talking about entirely different things. One of my schools was incredibly rough. If you talked back to a teacher you'd get instantly suspended, and on the third one bounced to alternative schooling. I was one of those kids. That no longer happens, and was starting to slip when I was due to graduate. These days I've witnessed students literally hurling desks at teachers and smashing windows only to be back in the classroom on Monday. Yes, I totally agree violence was more in your face in the 90s. The utter disrespect towards teachers and those trying to learn with zero consequences for your actions was simply not there yet, at least in my small section of the world. Perhaps on the coasts and other major cities this was already the norm. There simply is no mechanism to separate the small percentage of troublemakers from the general student population any longer, much less providing challenges for the high achievers. This drags down standards and morale on a massive fashion, and the results simply speak for themselves. The "best" school I went to during my illustrious schooling career was an inner city private school where almost all the kids were on 90%+ needs-based scholarships. Selection bias where only the parents who cared enough to jump through the loopholes made that place bearable - so teachers that actually taught stuck around. The difference in attitudes and hope was utterly night and day. Almost entirely because the bottom 10% or so wasn't dragging everyone else down to their behavioural level.

by phil21 5y ago

watwut 5y ago

Young people are better behaved now then at periods you talk about. Drugs abuse goes down. Young people commit less violent crime. They drink less alcohol. They even get pregnant less often. Young people now literally behave better wherever you look. The generation that grew in 90ties just was not better behaved.

phil21 5y ago
> The generation that grew in 90ties just was not better behaved. I'm not talking about better behaved. I'm talking about better behaved in school, or you got expelled very quickly. That left others who were there to learn (or at least not to be disruptive) move forward in peace. I have no opinion on if kids were better behaved outside the classroom - likely not, having grown up during that time. A single kid can ruin an entire semester for 40 kids in the classroom. I've personally watched it happen, and there was nothing the teacher could do. Averages don't matter in this situation - only outliers do. I'd go back to a "rougher" generation that learns to behave when appropriate (and those that don't learn, get removed) any day of the week over what we currently have in the average urban public school system. Edit: Heck, I got suspended from a couple classes in high school due to attendance issues. Rightfully so since I was holding back other students on group projects and the like. Today that would be utterly unheard of in that same school system.
- watwut 5y ago
  Except that, it does not seem to be the case. There is absolutely nothing to suggest kids were better behaved in schools. The rougher generation did not behaved better where appropriate. Even issues I mentioned were about them misbehaving when not appropriate. You just idealize own generation, that is all. Which is odd, because at the time superpredators panic was going on and people fretted.
  - phil21 5y ago
    > You just idealize own generation, that is all. Which is odd, because at the time superpredators panic was going on and people fretted. I still believe we're talking about entirely different things. One of my schools was incredibly rough. If you talked back to a teacher you'd get instantly suspended, and on the third one bounced to alternative schooling. I was one of those kids. That no longer happens, and was starting to slip when I was due to graduate. These days I've witnessed students literally hurling desks at teachers and smashing windows only to be back in the classroom on Monday. Yes, I totally agree violence was more in your face in the 90s. The utter disrespect towards teachers and those trying to learn with zero consequences for your actions was simply not there yet, at least in my small section of the world. Perhaps on the coasts and other major cities this was already the norm. There simply is no mechanism to separate the small percentage of troublemakers from the general student population any longer, much less providing challenges for the high achievers. This drags down standards and morale on a massive fashion, and the results simply speak for themselves. The "best" school I went to during my illustrious schooling career was an inner city private school where almost all the kids were on 90%+ needs-based scholarships. Selection bias where only the parents who cared enough to jump through the loopholes made that place bearable - so teachers that actually taught stuck around. The difference in attitudes and hope was utterly night and day. Almost entirely because the bottom 10% or so wasn't dragging everyone else down to their behavioural level.