5 ms·

Pen names are known to the publisher, though. They are pseudonyme s not complete anonymity. The current full anonymity of targeted taylored communication allo

by froh 5y ago

Pen names are known to the publisher, though. They are pseudonyme s not complete anonymity. The current full anonymity of targeted taylored communication allows for unprecedented levels of deceit, systematic and controlled disinformation of the electorate, in unprecedented ways, leading to e.g. Brexit. This current systematic abuse of anonymity to deceive the people is not comparable to the pseudonyme books and articles and leaflets of the pre-facebook era.

Gollapalli 5y ago
You're just mad that the proles and rubes disagree with your politics.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fallingknife 5y ago
If disinformation is able to sway public opinion, and people are unable to distinguish it from the truth, which you clearly believe, then how do you know that your opinions are not also based on disinformation?
- froh 5y ago
  Consult reputation based non-anonymous information if in doubt? Like scholar.google.com or dead-tree libraries?
yanmaani 5y ago
If people can't tell truth from lies, why even bother having elections? You mention Brexit. If it was a foregone conclusion that people weren't sharp enough to vote either way, why not just ask Queen Elizabeth whether they should stay or leave?
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  > why not just ask Queen Elizabeth whether they should stay or leave? There is an alternative, of course. The country could be mapped out as a few hundred distinct contiguous regions, and the people who live in each region could vote for one of their fellow inhabitants to represent them. So, rather than each individual having to weigh the complex arguments for and against Brexit, they could make a much more "human" decision of deciding whether a candidate seems honest and competent. To aid them in that decision, they can look at the candidate's past record, and the potential endorsement they may have from a political party (which itself will have a record of good or bad policies). Then the winning candidates (hopefully under some sensible voting system) can all get together and debate the issue, and commission reports from experts, then vote on the big question themselves. Of course there's still no guarantee that the right decision would be made, but, for the record, in the 2019 general election, 52% of the popular vote went to parties that were in favour of a second referendum (which could have had a better set of options on it). https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-result-boris-johnson-pro-brexit-referendum-voters-conservatives-a9245866.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-resu...
  - froh 5y ago
    The fallacy here is that districted voting ends up with two parties. Extreme ones with fptp, mode centrist ones with, say, approval voting. So first you want some proportional representation. The second fallacy is that of the informed voter or the informed representative. The core issue we debated in this thread was about that second fallacy. The issue is that "information" is heavily manipulated in a world where anyone can anonymously claim anything. And how do you address that with representative democracy?
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      > So first you want some proportional representation. Well, I did say "some sensible voting system", and I think such a system can still be district-based, either using some top-up seats (like in MMP) or (more controversially) assigning different weights to the votes of each representative based on what share their party got of the popular vote.[0] > The second fallacy is that of ... the informed representative. If someone has the full time job and the skills (as judged by the public) and the resources to seek out a broad range of opinions (from constituents, other representatives, academics, activists, and civil servants), then they are surely more able than the average citizen (or average dictator) to make a well-informed decision. We're not expecting perfection, here, just an insulating layer between the manipulated information of the media (including social media) and the decision-making process. [0] https://www.dprvoting.org/ https://www.dprvoting.org/

by froh 5y ago

Gollapalli 5y ago

You're just mad that the proles and rubes disagree with your politics.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

fallingknife 5y ago

If disinformation is able to sway public opinion, and people are unable to distinguish it from the truth, which you clearly believe, then how do you know that your opinions are not also based on disinformation?

froh 5y ago
Consult reputation based non-anonymous information if in doubt? Like scholar.google.com or dead-tree libraries?

yanmaani 5y ago

If people can't tell truth from lies, why even bother having elections? You mention Brexit. If it was a foregone conclusion that people weren't sharp enough to vote either way, why not just ask Queen Elizabeth whether they should stay or leave?

dane-pgp 5y ago
> why not just ask Queen Elizabeth whether they should stay or leave? There is an alternative, of course. The country could be mapped out as a few hundred distinct contiguous regions, and the people who live in each region could vote for one of their fellow inhabitants to represent them. So, rather than each individual having to weigh the complex arguments for and against Brexit, they could make a much more "human" decision of deciding whether a candidate seems honest and competent. To aid them in that decision, they can look at the candidate's past record, and the potential endorsement they may have from a political party (which itself will have a record of good or bad policies). Then the winning candidates (hopefully under some sensible voting system) can all get together and debate the issue, and commission reports from experts, then vote on the big question themselves. Of course there's still no guarantee that the right decision would be made, but, for the record, in the 2019 general election, 52% of the popular vote went to parties that were in favour of a second referendum (which could have had a better set of options on it). https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-result-boris-johnson-pro-brexit-referendum-voters-conservatives-a9245866.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-resu...
- froh 5y ago
  The fallacy here is that districted voting ends up with two parties. Extreme ones with fptp, mode centrist ones with, say, approval voting. So first you want some proportional representation. The second fallacy is that of the informed voter or the informed representative. The core issue we debated in this thread was about that second fallacy. The issue is that "information" is heavily manipulated in a world where anyone can anonymously claim anything. And how do you address that with representative democracy?
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    > So first you want some proportional representation. Well, I did say "some sensible voting system", and I think such a system can still be district-based, either using some top-up seats (like in MMP) or (more controversially) assigning different weights to the votes of each representative based on what share their party got of the popular vote.[0] > The second fallacy is that of ... the informed representative. If someone has the full time job and the skills (as judged by the public) and the resources to seek out a broad range of opinions (from constituents, other representatives, academics, activists, and civil servants), then they are surely more able than the average citizen (or average dictator) to make a well-informed decision. We're not expecting perfection, here, just an insulating layer between the manipulated information of the media (including social media) and the decision-making process. [0] https://www.dprvoting.org/ https://www.dprvoting.org/