3 ms·

Sweden returns to cold war tactics to battle fake news

18 points by app4soft 5y ago

app4soft 5y ago
Magnus Hjort, deputy director of Sweden’s new “psychological defence” agency: > We can’t rule out that Sweden can be attacked. > Authoritarian states have for years been trying to influence elections. The difference today is that through social media you have better opportunities to influence people. That’s why we need to have the capacity to monitor for an interference in our democracy. > What we have seen lately is that the security situation has deteriorated in our part of the world. It has become more tense. > We have to have something to analyse, to identify this and to be able to counter it and that’s why we are now establishing a psychological defence agency in Sweden. > Conflict between states will be there after this year as well. This year could become particularly nasty and difficult. > It will have to tread very carefully on controversial issues not to create the impression of the state trying to stifle critical views. Even if it is stated in the instructions that the new agency shall promote free speech, the line is not easy to draw.
- LudwigNagasena 5y ago
  So as long as subversion comes from private actors and democratic governments it’s fine?
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    That's not what they say. It's worse when it's a neighboring authoritarian regime that is planning for war.
    - nix23 5y ago
      >It's worse when it's a neighboring authoritarian regime that is planning for war Maybe then stop sending Nato weapons to their borders for the last 10 years?
      - NicoJuicy 5y ago
        So a country may not defend itselve in danger? Russia has already been in war since 2014 within close proximity by invading Ukraine! That's entirely Russia's fault. You do know that the USSR fell and a lot of those ex-ussr countries preferred the "west" and wanted to part ways from USSR / Russia? A lot of them did fyi. And other countries are having that moment. They are free to choose what they want for their future. But i don't think many people want to replicate Russia's system. The last 20 years of more Russia repeatedly threatened and checked responses of many countries to replicate what could/would happen in case of war. And I'm not even talking about the numerous cyber attacks yet. The one trying to escalate things is obviously the one amassing 100 k. Troops next to their neighbor. It's not our fault that Russia didn't foresee countries didn't want anything to do with them anymore. They don't have much to offer either except military assistance and oil/gas. Or that they are noticing increased civilian unrest with their last USSR "autoritarian friends" where they had to step in. ( Belarus, Kazachstan). Russia is trying to delay the inevitable. Countries are turning away of oil/gas and Russia won't have the money anymore to maintain their expensive army ( 6% of GDP ). He literally hastened their demise because of his threats to everyone. his biggest and most lucrative clients are running away whenever possible. Which is also entirely his fault.
        nix23 5y ago
        >So a country may not defend itselve in danger? Wrong argument, Nato is steered from the US, and the US has no business near russian border, bush and trump ended many deals with russia...Nato was defensive and is now misused as a aggressive UN with weapons, but it's just for the better good of humankind (at least what the us thinks it is...like buy Gas from the US not Russia). Do you think it's a good idea if china or russia brings some weapons back to Cuba? No? Because that's exactly what Nato(aka US) does since over 15 years. >It's not our fault that Russia didn't foresee countries didn't want anything to do with them anymore. You are twisting facts, the US ended the nuclear missile pact with Russia, there was a deal that Nato leaves a band of country's between Russia (also called demilitarized (nato/russia) zone) the US gave a damn about it. If everything gets canceled from one side, it's no wonder what the other side thinks...and fun-fact it's good for the US...no so for Europe, if you bully someone until he has to defend himself...it is your fault. You thinks it's about defending Ukraine? Hint it's not...it's about blocking a pipeline and create/refresh an old enemy for Europe.
    - LudwigNagasena 5y ago
      I don’t see a war being mentioned anywhere. The rhetoric is purely about the influence of authoritarian governments on elections. So the question still stands.
      - NicoJuicy 5y ago
        Invading a country and using gray zone tactics for plausible deniability is already war.
  - hulitu 5y ago
    Yes. My propaganda it's better than yours. The state, of course, does not want to fight propaganda because it is useful for it.
foolzcrow 5y ago
nix23 5y ago
The fake news about Russian submarines at Sweden coastal line was made BY sweden...do they return with that too? https://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/lory1.ethz.ch/collections/coll_india/SubmarineIncursions.html https://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/lory1.ethz.ch/collections/coll_i... >>A Split on the Domestic Front When taking office for his second term – which coincidentally took place during the Hårsfjärden incident – Prime Minister Olof Palme appointed Lennart Bodström as foreign minister in his government. Bodström, previously a trade union chairman, was rather inexperienced in foreign policy, leaving Palme, no doubt, with the most important aspects of foreign policy. In 1985, Bodström attended a dinner arranged by Swedish journalists at one of Sweden’s largest daily newspapers, the liberal Dagens Nyheter. The journalists represented several different right-wing newspapers. According to the journalists, during a question-and-answer session, Bodström made it clear that he “did not believe we had any submarine incursions, and if we did, they were not Soviet ones.”[4] When Bodström’s opinion was made public in newspapers, the center-right party leaders in the Swedish Parliament demanded the foreign minister’s resignation. Palme, however, defended Bodström at least through that autumn’s election, and, after a short period as minister of education, he was appointed ambassador to neighboring Norway. >>Bodström made it clear that he “did not believe we had any submarine incursions, and if we did, they were not Soviet ones.”
- rightbyte 5y ago
  Many politicians didn't want there to be any Soviet uboats since they wanted to defound the army. One washed up on some rocks 5 year prior to your quote, so obvously that dude had no clue what he was talking about: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363
  - nix23 5y ago
    Many politicians WANTED there to be Soviet uboats so they can uphold founding off the army (it's just better when Sweden has the same enemy/fears as the US has). There i corrected it for you. >One washed up on some rocks 5 year prior to your quote Yes that's a fantastic story if you dig a bit deeper: https://www.amazon.de/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/dp/1610393589 https://www.amazon.de/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/d... But sure "that Dude" had no clue ;) EDIT: Ahh sorry it's another book..i have to search it, it's a pretty long story and nearly unbelievable but the wikipedia article give a hint about it.
tici_88 5y ago
Other countries should probably follow suit. Where I live the levels of Russian financed misinformation is intense and surreal. I don't mean just social media trolls which FB is awash with but also paid operatives working on the ground and in communities and instigating against vaccines, NATO, EU and other topics key to Kremlin backed propaganda.

18 points by app4soft 5y ago

Magnus Hjort, deputy director of Sweden’s new “psychological defence” agency: > We can’t rule out that Sweden can be attacked. > Authoritarian states have for years been trying to influence elections. The difference today is that through social media you have better opportunities to influence people. That’s why we need to have the capacity to monitor for an interference in our democracy. > What we have seen lately is that the security situation has deteriorated in our part of the world. It has become more tense. > We have to have something to analyse, to identify this and to be able to counter it and that’s why we are now establishing a psychological defence agency in Sweden. > Conflict between states will be there after this year as well. This year could become particularly nasty and difficult. > It will have to tread very carefully on controversial issues not to create the impression of the state trying to stifle critical views. Even if it is stated in the instructions that the new agency shall promote free speech, the line is not easy to draw.

LudwigNagasena 5y ago
So as long as subversion comes from private actors and democratic governments it’s fine?
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  That's not what they say. It's worse when it's a neighboring authoritarian regime that is planning for war.
  - nix23 5y ago
    >It's worse when it's a neighboring authoritarian regime that is planning for war Maybe then stop sending Nato weapons to their borders for the last 10 years?
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      So a country may not defend itselve in danger? Russia has already been in war since 2014 within close proximity by invading Ukraine! That's entirely Russia's fault. You do know that the USSR fell and a lot of those ex-ussr countries preferred the "west" and wanted to part ways from USSR / Russia? A lot of them did fyi. And other countries are having that moment. They are free to choose what they want for their future. But i don't think many people want to replicate Russia's system. The last 20 years of more Russia repeatedly threatened and checked responses of many countries to replicate what could/would happen in case of war. And I'm not even talking about the numerous cyber attacks yet. The one trying to escalate things is obviously the one amassing 100 k. Troops next to their neighbor. It's not our fault that Russia didn't foresee countries didn't want anything to do with them anymore. They don't have much to offer either except military assistance and oil/gas. Or that they are noticing increased civilian unrest with their last USSR "autoritarian friends" where they had to step in. ( Belarus, Kazachstan). Russia is trying to delay the inevitable. Countries are turning away of oil/gas and Russia won't have the money anymore to maintain their expensive army ( 6% of GDP ). He literally hastened their demise because of his threats to everyone. his biggest and most lucrative clients are running away whenever possible. Which is also entirely his fault.
      - nix23 5y ago
        >So a country may not defend itselve in danger? Wrong argument, Nato is steered from the US, and the US has no business near russian border, bush and trump ended many deals with russia...Nato was defensive and is now misused as a aggressive UN with weapons, but it's just for the better good of humankind (at least what the us thinks it is...like buy Gas from the US not Russia). Do you think it's a good idea if china or russia brings some weapons back to Cuba? No? Because that's exactly what Nato(aka US) does since over 15 years. >It's not our fault that Russia didn't foresee countries didn't want anything to do with them anymore. You are twisting facts, the US ended the nuclear missile pact with Russia, there was a deal that Nato leaves a band of country's between Russia (also called demilitarized (nato/russia) zone) the US gave a damn about it. If everything gets canceled from one side, it's no wonder what the other side thinks...and fun-fact it's good for the US...no so for Europe, if you bully someone until he has to defend himself...it is your fault. You thinks it's about defending Ukraine? Hint it's not...it's about blocking a pipeline and create/refresh an old enemy for Europe.
  - LudwigNagasena 5y ago
    I don’t see a war being mentioned anywhere. The rhetoric is purely about the influence of authoritarian governments on elections. So the question still stands.
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      Invading a country and using gray zone tactics for plausible deniability is already war.
- hulitu 5y ago
  Yes. My propaganda it's better than yours. The state, of course, does not want to fight propaganda because it is useful for it.

foolzcrow 5y ago

nix23 5y ago

The fake news about Russian submarines at Sweden coastal line was made BY sweden...do they return with that too? https://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/lory1.ethz.ch/collections/coll_india/SubmarineIncursions.html https://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/lory1.ethz.ch/collections/coll_i... >>A Split on the Domestic Front When taking office for his second term – which coincidentally took place during the Hårsfjärden incident – Prime Minister Olof Palme appointed Lennart Bodström as foreign minister in his government. Bodström, previously a trade union chairman, was rather inexperienced in foreign policy, leaving Palme, no doubt, with the most important aspects of foreign policy. In 1985, Bodström attended a dinner arranged by Swedish journalists at one of Sweden’s largest daily newspapers, the liberal Dagens Nyheter. The journalists represented several different right-wing newspapers. According to the journalists, during a question-and-answer session, Bodström made it clear that he “did not believe we had any submarine incursions, and if we did, they were not Soviet ones.”[4] When Bodström’s opinion was made public in newspapers, the center-right party leaders in the Swedish Parliament demanded the foreign minister’s resignation. Palme, however, defended Bodström at least through that autumn’s election, and, after a short period as minister of education, he was appointed ambassador to neighboring Norway. >>Bodström made it clear that he “did not believe we had any submarine incursions, and if we did, they were not Soviet ones.”

rightbyte 5y ago
Many politicians didn't want there to be any Soviet uboats since they wanted to defound the army. One washed up on some rocks 5 year prior to your quote, so obvously that dude had no clue what he was talking about: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363
- nix23 5y ago
  Many politicians WANTED there to be Soviet uboats so they can uphold founding off the army (it's just better when Sweden has the same enemy/fears as the US has). There i corrected it for you. >One washed up on some rocks 5 year prior to your quote Yes that's a fantastic story if you dig a bit deeper: https://www.amazon.de/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/dp/1610393589 https://www.amazon.de/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/d... But sure "that Dude" had no clue ;) EDIT: Ahh sorry it's another book..i have to search it, it's a pretty long story and nearly unbelievable but the wikipedia article give a hint about it.

tici_88 5y ago

Other countries should probably follow suit. Where I live the levels of Russian financed misinformation is intense and surreal. I don't mean just social media trolls which FB is awash with but also paid operatives working on the ground and in communities and instigating against vaccines, NATO, EU and other topics key to Kremlin backed propaganda.