5 ms·

GTK is a GNOME library and GNOME has shown in the past that they not only don't care about third party software but are actually extremely harmful to the commun

by sprash 5y ago

GTK is a GNOME library and GNOME has shown in the past that they not only don't care about third party software but are actually extremely harmful to the community to the point that you might as well call it sabotage. The transition from GTK2 to GTK3 was extremely painful, had no benefits for anyone except GNOME and had many regressions across the board. The right course of action for Inkscape would be to switch back to GTK2 and be as independent from GNOME as possible. For everybody else it would be advised to make sure that your software runs well everywhere but GNOME. Simply check if getenv("XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP") is equal to "GNOME" and exit(EXIT_FAILURE) if true.

prox 5y ago
I hate this ivory tower way of developing. It holds back progress, learning by exchange, and so on.
commoner 5y ago
Display scaling is only supported by GTK 3 and later, so downgrading to GTK 2 would result in a blurry interface for a lot of users (and not just GNOME users). 1080p or higher resolution laptops and 4K monitors are quite common nowadays. I can't agree with excluding all GNOME users from using an application, since it's not the fault of GNOME users in general that it's difficult to transition between major GTK versions.
- chrismorgan 5y ago
  Eh, GTK as a whole is… well, not healthy for cross-platform development. It used to be a good deal better (though it was never really excellent), but from GNOME 3 they’ve pretty much decided to flat-out ignore other platforms and their conventions, and shift GTK from being GNOME-focused but fairly platform agnostic with pretty good look-and-feel theming to being just GNOME GNOME GNOME and wildly out of place in look and feel everywhere else. Of course, other options in a similar space like Qt aren’t entirely better in that they don’t behave fully like GNOME on GNOME platforms. The best cross-platform native-feel apps, like Firefox, tend to use GTK on Linux (or possibly KDE/Qt in KDE?) and other things on other platforms. As a Linux user I inevitably use quite a bit of GTK software (though barely any GNOME stuff, if you savvy the distinction I’m drawing), but I dislike almost all of the directions it’s headed in since GNOME 3. Decent scaling is one of the few redeeming features. sprash is describing a very—ahh—ideologically pure position, but I do deeply sympathise with a desire for a return to the GTK+ 2 ways. My ideal would probably be to scrap GTK+ 3 and 4 and create 5 derived mostly from GTK+ 2’s philosophies, just including the good technical parts of 3 and 4, but determinedly not a full style unto itself. Also I’m fed up with client-side decorations matter and want better support for server-side decorations, as was done traditionally and as is still generally preferable on Windows and in most Linux window managers, or even platform-matching client-side decorations, which would be good for macOS and Windows and frankly GNOME. GNOME has basically sabotaged GTK as a cross-platform library—even as a Linux-wide thing (apart from KDE). They’ve taken it over to serve their own purposes and vision. Their vision does improve and unify some parts of GNOME desktops, but as a user of something other than GNOME (Sway), I don’t like most of what they’ve done to GTK.
  - dantondwa 5y ago
    Doesn't GTK4 address your complaints? To a certain degree, I think they've realized what you say. GTK4: - decouples GNOME and GTK. They've created a new library, called libadwaita, that hosts the GNOME stuff. - brings big performance improvements (it has GL and Vulkan backends) - is much better on macOS and Windows. Anyway, I agree with you on your points. One of the issues of opensource graphic programs is that the toolkits that are available are quite problematic/don't care about this use case. This is not just about GTK, as QT has also been causing a lot of headaches to the Krita developers. It is not by chance that Blender, which draws the UI using its own toolkit, is not affected by these issues and has a fantastic, fast UI.
    - nyanpasu64 5y ago
      Not the parent commenter, but I find GTK4 worse than GTK3 on non-GNOME Linux environments. The popovers capture input and hang your entire Xorg session until you press Esc (affecting EasyEffects), GTK4 has window creation race conditions breaking title bars on KWin and window positioning on KWin and xfwm4, and line height and text y-coordinates are non-integer and text is rendered at fractional vertical coordinates, resulting in blur even with hinting on (which assumes integer-pixel vertical positioning).
    - chrismorgan 5y ago
      I might need to take a closer look at it at some point. I’ve never used anything that uses it, and I haven’t inspected it or grasped the scope of libadwaita, but most times I’ve heard anything about GTK 4, there have been major bad things—selection bias, to be sure, and perhaps confirmation bias, but it may indicate something. The three examples that come to mind immediately: • They severely damaged text rendering and initially didn’t even acknowledge it as a defect, dismissing the report: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3787 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3787. More recently there’s some movement on the issue, but the initial reaction was not a good look, at least. • Someone said various bad things about libadwaita here on HN a couple of weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30027002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30027002. • Of accessibility, they’ve completely redesigned it, in a way that is very convincingly better, or will be once it’s all finished including supporting tooling, but the impression I’ve received from a couple of communities where it’s come up a bit at times is that at least when they released GTK 4 and told people “start adopting it!”, GTK 4 apps were opaque to screen readers, because half the plumbing was missing. This impression could be false, and if there was any lack, hopefully it’s addressed by now. I’m curious what the state of affairs is for approximating native look and feel on Windows. GTK+ 2 had a once-fairly-decent win32 theme that became fairly significantly out of date after Windows XP, but there were also some more recent themes that did parts better (and other parts worse). I’ve never seen a Windows theme for GTK+ 3 that is even halfway decent for look, and feel is a dead loss (e.g. menu keyboard behaviour and list box popup positioning and behaviour are both just painfully wrong). If they’re serious about cross-platform, attempting to match Windows and macOS look and feel (and completely ignoring Linux, for a while) is where effort should be placed. I don’t know if they are.

by sprash 5y ago

prox 5y ago

I hate this ivory tower way of developing. It holds back progress, learning by exchange, and so on.

commoner 5y ago

Display scaling is only supported by GTK 3 and later, so downgrading to GTK 2 would result in a blurry interface for a lot of users (and not just GNOME users). 1080p or higher resolution laptops and 4K monitors are quite common nowadays. I can't agree with excluding all GNOME users from using an application, since it's not the fault of GNOME users in general that it's difficult to transition between major GTK versions.

chrismorgan 5y ago
Eh, GTK as a whole is… well, not healthy for cross-platform development. It used to be a good deal better (though it was never really excellent), but from GNOME 3 they’ve pretty much decided to flat-out ignore other platforms and their conventions, and shift GTK from being GNOME-focused but fairly platform agnostic with pretty good look-and-feel theming to being just GNOME GNOME GNOME and wildly out of place in look and feel everywhere else. Of course, other options in a similar space like Qt aren’t entirely better in that they don’t behave fully like GNOME on GNOME platforms. The best cross-platform native-feel apps, like Firefox, tend to use GTK on Linux (or possibly KDE/Qt in KDE?) and other things on other platforms. As a Linux user I inevitably use quite a bit of GTK software (though barely any GNOME stuff, if you savvy the distinction I’m drawing), but I dislike almost all of the directions it’s headed in since GNOME 3. Decent scaling is one of the few redeeming features. sprash is describing a very—ahh—ideologically pure position, but I do deeply sympathise with a desire for a return to the GTK+ 2 ways. My ideal would probably be to scrap GTK+ 3 and 4 and create 5 derived mostly from GTK+ 2’s philosophies, just including the good technical parts of 3 and 4, but determinedly not a full style unto itself. Also I’m fed up with client-side decorations matter and want better support for server-side decorations, as was done traditionally and as is still generally preferable on Windows and in most Linux window managers, or even platform-matching client-side decorations, which would be good for macOS and Windows and frankly GNOME. GNOME has basically sabotaged GTK as a cross-platform library—even as a Linux-wide thing (apart from KDE). They’ve taken it over to serve their own purposes and vision. Their vision does improve and unify some parts of GNOME desktops, but as a user of something other than GNOME (Sway), I don’t like most of what they’ve done to GTK.
- dantondwa 5y ago
  Doesn't GTK4 address your complaints? To a certain degree, I think they've realized what you say. GTK4: - decouples GNOME and GTK. They've created a new library, called libadwaita, that hosts the GNOME stuff. - brings big performance improvements (it has GL and Vulkan backends) - is much better on macOS and Windows. Anyway, I agree with you on your points. One of the issues of opensource graphic programs is that the toolkits that are available are quite problematic/don't care about this use case. This is not just about GTK, as QT has also been causing a lot of headaches to the Krita developers. It is not by chance that Blender, which draws the UI using its own toolkit, is not affected by these issues and has a fantastic, fast UI.
  - nyanpasu64 5y ago
    Not the parent commenter, but I find GTK4 worse than GTK3 on non-GNOME Linux environments. The popovers capture input and hang your entire Xorg session until you press Esc (affecting EasyEffects), GTK4 has window creation race conditions breaking title bars on KWin and window positioning on KWin and xfwm4, and line height and text y-coordinates are non-integer and text is rendered at fractional vertical coordinates, resulting in blur even with hinting on (which assumes integer-pixel vertical positioning).
  - chrismorgan 5y ago
    I might need to take a closer look at it at some point. I’ve never used anything that uses it, and I haven’t inspected it or grasped the scope of libadwaita, but most times I’ve heard anything about GTK 4, there have been major bad things—selection bias, to be sure, and perhaps confirmation bias, but it may indicate something. The three examples that come to mind immediately: • They severely damaged text rendering and initially didn’t even acknowledge it as a defect, dismissing the report: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3787 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3787. More recently there’s some movement on the issue, but the initial reaction was not a good look, at least. • Someone said various bad things about libadwaita here on HN a couple of weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30027002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30027002. • Of accessibility, they’ve completely redesigned it, in a way that is very convincingly better, or will be once it’s all finished including supporting tooling, but the impression I’ve received from a couple of communities where it’s come up a bit at times is that at least when they released GTK 4 and told people “start adopting it!”, GTK 4 apps were opaque to screen readers, because half the plumbing was missing. This impression could be false, and if there was any lack, hopefully it’s addressed by now. I’m curious what the state of affairs is for approximating native look and feel on Windows. GTK+ 2 had a once-fairly-decent win32 theme that became fairly significantly out of date after Windows XP, but there were also some more recent themes that did parts better (and other parts worse). I’ve never seen a Windows theme for GTK+ 3 that is even halfway decent for look, and feel is a dead loss (e.g. menu keyboard behaviour and list box popup positioning and behaviour are both just painfully wrong). If they’re serious about cross-platform, attempting to match Windows and macOS look and feel (and completely ignoring Linux, for a while) is where effort should be placed. I don’t know if they are.