5 ms·

This is becoming a meme. Anyone can post a comment containing the words web3, ponzi, scam, hype and add literally no value but still get upvoted. My take on cr

by baxtr 5y ago

This is becoming a meme. Anyone can post a comment containing the words web3, ponzi, scam, hype and add literally no value but still get upvoted. My take on crypto at this point is very simple: At least we have the transparency. There are so many scams going on in the financial industry. But it's hard to undercover, because all is opaque. It is the same with energy costs. Has anyone dared to calculate the CO2 release of traditional core banking systems or even running a large network of physical branches. No, because it's difficult and opaque. With the public blockchain these things actually can be calculated, which is a good thing I believe. Same with art. Is the broad public aware of the crazy price tags paid in the art scene over the last two decades? NFTs make this public. If more people would embrace the transparency created instead of complaining about the space all the time, we would create a better world.

goodpoint 5y ago
> There are so many scams going on in the financial industry I never met anyone who got scammed by a real bank. > Has anyone dared to calculate the CO2 release of traditional core banking systems or even running a large network of physical branches Yes and it's pretty negligible compared to PoW, obviously. > If more people would embrace the transparency created instead of complaining about the space all the time, we would create a better world. Transparency is not a magic cure-all. Plus, privacy is crucial to protect vulnerable people.
- syzygyhack 5y ago
  > I never met anyone who got scammed by a real bank. Congrats on the first world privilege.
  - rjtavares 5y ago
    You have summarized my main problem with cryptocurrencies: it's cool to have that technology available, but it doesn't really improve on having first world institutions. Basically it's great for poorer countries, first world criminals and potentially for a dystopian future.
    - syzygyhack 5y ago
      You don't understand how decentralized systems that provide cryptographically-assured accountability improves on existing institutions in the first world? I find that curious. Usually people get lost on the tech side.
      - chaosite 5y ago
        Yeah, I don't. Decentralized systems don't provide cryptographically-assured accountability, they require cryptographically-assured accountability in order to function correctly. If you give up the decentralization requirement, and instead federate authority across well-regulated entities, then you don't need the crypto, not as a base requirement anyway. And you still need the regulation, because all this fancy cryptographical assurance does is prevent man-in-the-middle attacks that arise from the decentralization requirement, and you still need to regulate the input and output--which is where all fraud occurs anyway.
        rjtavares 5y ago
        Exactly. The hard problem is to build and maintain the democratic institutions required by a developed country. I find some people seem to be willing to gamble that for a tech solution.
        Ygg2 5y ago
        I think crypto has some use as distributed logs. But that's it. You can't solve a social problem with a computer/tech solution. It just doesn't work.
      - lottin 5y ago
        I don't understand it either. In fact, I don't think it's true at all. I think if you think technology is a substitute for well-functioning democratic institutions you're an ignorant fool.
        5y ago
  - Ygg2 5y ago
    I have. But it was a Pyramidal bank. Just like crypto.
- Tenoke 5y ago
  >I never met anyone who got scammed by a real bank. I have (indirectly) in this bank run. It was the fourth largest bank in an EU country. >https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seizure_of_Bulgaria%27s_Corpbank https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seizure_of_Bulgaria%27s_Corp...
  - alisonkisk 5y ago
  - oblio 5y ago
    You come from a banana republic next to mine. We also had a ton of bank runs due to pyramid schemes during the 90s and early 00s. We solved them with... more regulation :-)
    - baxtr 5y ago
      That's the whole point, right? It's the people not the technology.
sgt101 5y ago
>It is the same with energy costs. Has anyone dared to calculate the CO2 release of traditional core banking systems or even running a large network of physical branches. No, because it's difficult and opaque. With the public blockchain these things actually can be calculated, which is a good thing I believe. I think every major bank has got some folks doing that. It's a prerequisite of green washing.
- threeseed 5y ago
  No it's a prerequisite of not being incompetent. Most companies monitor their power bills in order to ensure they are not needlessly wasting money by leaving lights or air-conditioning on etc. Once you know your power consumption it's a pretty simple calculation to get CO2 usage.
  - baxtr 5y ago
    That might be available on company but not on a system level. So I don't think there is no way to compare it with the energy consumption of an entire blockchain.
    - lottin 5y ago
      The energy consumption of a blockchain is not publicly available anywhere. What are you talking about?
      - sgt101 5y ago
        there are estimates available : https://www.forbes.com/sites/philippsandner/2021/11/19/bitcoin-co2-emissions-from-an-investor-perspective-and-how-to-compensate-them/?sh=59379dac8c1c https://www.forbes.com/sites/philippsandner/2021/11/19/bitco...
    - 8note 5y ago
      Which block chains require sharing the amount of CO2 released while adding a new block? How do the non accepted blocks get counted?
threeseed 5y ago
You say that Web3 and NFT results in more transparency. But I work for a bank and our money laundering systems and processes automatically kick in for suspicious transactions and those over a certain amount. We will freeze transactions until we conduct due diligence aiming to identity the true parties e.g by unsheathing shell companies as well as the nature and intent of the transaction. And this is through a range of methods including requesting supplemental documentation and involving law enforcement. Can you clarify for any of the million dollar Bored Ape Yacht Club purchases who the true parties are given that supposedly this information can be derived from the blockchain ?
- baxtr 5y ago
  Interesting, we have different view points on similar industries. I work for an insurer and we see a lot cyber related theft and fraud, especially in the financial industry but also in other industries. Often the people are from outside the company, but very often they have people inside the company. In most cases the money can’t be recovered because it gets quickly wired to countries like Nigeria or HK. It’s a whole industry. Completely opaque because no company likes to talk about the losses. These things are handled quietly. On a different level: I believe many structured products purchased by private consumers are at least a rip-off and could be categorized as scam. Take for example life insurances sold by brokers with lifetime contracts yielding almost no interest whatsoever. There is a constant battle between regulators, lawyers and companies.
  - oblio 5y ago
    The thing is, the incentives won't change. Whoever's going to push web3 will still want that opacity, it's a feature, not a bug. They'll want it to make money and to protect and hide their money. Plus you can't have it both ways, either cryptocurrencies are somehow, magically, privacy protecting and anonymous, or you have transparency. It's impossible to have both.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    > There is a constant battle between regulators, lawyers and companies Which has unquestionably benefited consumers. If you look at the financial system 50 years ago and compare it to today consumers have far more rights and protections. And the system continues to learn and improve e.g. requiring banks to hold more reserve capital and increasing the amount of deposit insurance. Problem for Web3 is that governments, regulators and the legal system do not play a central role like in Web2. And so all of the safety nets built up over these years will evaporate and consumers will suffer.
root_axis 5y ago
> My take on crypto at this point is very simple: At least we have the transparency. There are so many scams going on in the financial industry. But it's hard to undercover, because all is opaque. How do you square this idea with the fact that the cryptocurrency ecosystem is widely recognized as being disproportionately riddled with scams?
- baxtr 5y ago
  I am not sure if I understand your question? My whole point is that it is "recognized as being disproportionately riddled with scams" because of the transparency.
lottin 5y ago
> There are so many scams going on in the financial industry. But it's hard to undercover, because all is opaque. What scams?
- baxtr 5y ago
  I have explained this elsewhere in this thread. But just a very public example: Look-up the company Wirecard or google cum-ex fraud. Fraud on a huge level. All going on behind the curtains. We sometimes get a sneak peak when something on the level of Wirecard blows up. Just extrapolate that for a second to the entire economy.
JaimeThompson 5y ago
> At least we have the transparency. If that is true why do so many of the principles behind various web3 things keep their identities hidden? That is the opposite of transparency
- baxtr 5y ago
  I agree and I am not trying to defend those people. At the same time you rarely ask for the identities of bankers or people running scam company since you don't know about the fraud in the first place. You need the New York Times to go investigate and uncover. With web3 you just need to login into twitter and follow-up the transactions. That's a huge advantage from my perspective.
  - JaimeThompson 5y ago
    For federally chartered banks the names of all the executives and major shareholders are public records and I do search such things before doing business with a bank. I just realized I haven't had coffee so off to have that so I can write in a way that doesn't make me sound like a jerk.
    - baxtr 5y ago
      No worries, you didn't come across as such :) Enjoy your well-deserved Sunday coffee!

by baxtr 5y ago

goodpoint 5y ago

> There are so many scams going on in the financial industry I never met anyone who got scammed by a real bank. > Has anyone dared to calculate the CO2 release of traditional core banking systems or even running a large network of physical branches Yes and it's pretty negligible compared to PoW, obviously. > If more people would embrace the transparency created instead of complaining about the space all the time, we would create a better world. Transparency is not a magic cure-all. Plus, privacy is crucial to protect vulnerable people.

syzygyhack 5y ago
> I never met anyone who got scammed by a real bank. Congrats on the first world privilege.
- rjtavares 5y ago
  You have summarized my main problem with cryptocurrencies: it's cool to have that technology available, but it doesn't really improve on having first world institutions. Basically it's great for poorer countries, first world criminals and potentially for a dystopian future.
  - syzygyhack 5y ago
    You don't understand how decentralized systems that provide cryptographically-assured accountability improves on existing institutions in the first world? I find that curious. Usually people get lost on the tech side.
    - chaosite 5y ago
      Yeah, I don't. Decentralized systems don't provide cryptographically-assured accountability, they require cryptographically-assured accountability in order to function correctly. If you give up the decentralization requirement, and instead federate authority across well-regulated entities, then you don't need the crypto, not as a base requirement anyway. And you still need the regulation, because all this fancy cryptographical assurance does is prevent man-in-the-middle attacks that arise from the decentralization requirement, and you still need to regulate the input and output--which is where all fraud occurs anyway.
      - rjtavares 5y ago
        Exactly. The hard problem is to build and maintain the democratic institutions required by a developed country. I find some people seem to be willing to gamble that for a tech solution.
        Ygg2 5y ago
        I think crypto has some use as distributed logs. But that's it. You can't solve a social problem with a computer/tech solution. It just doesn't work.
    - lottin 5y ago
      I don't understand it either. In fact, I don't think it's true at all. I think if you think technology is a substitute for well-functioning democratic institutions you're an ignorant fool.
      - 5y ago
- Ygg2 5y ago
  I have. But it was a Pyramidal bank. Just like crypto.
Tenoke 5y ago
>I never met anyone who got scammed by a real bank. I have (indirectly) in this bank run. It was the fourth largest bank in an EU country. >https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seizure_of_Bulgaria%27s_Corpbank https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seizure_of_Bulgaria%27s_Corp...
- alisonkisk 5y ago
- oblio 5y ago
  You come from a banana republic next to mine. We also had a ton of bank runs due to pyramid schemes during the 90s and early 00s. We solved them with... more regulation :-)
  - baxtr 5y ago
    That's the whole point, right? It's the people not the technology.

sgt101 5y ago

>It is the same with energy costs. Has anyone dared to calculate the CO2 release of traditional core banking systems or even running a large network of physical branches. No, because it's difficult and opaque. With the public blockchain these things actually can be calculated, which is a good thing I believe. I think every major bank has got some folks doing that. It's a prerequisite of green washing.

threeseed 5y ago
No it's a prerequisite of not being incompetent. Most companies monitor their power bills in order to ensure they are not needlessly wasting money by leaving lights or air-conditioning on etc. Once you know your power consumption it's a pretty simple calculation to get CO2 usage.
- baxtr 5y ago
  That might be available on company but not on a system level. So I don't think there is no way to compare it with the energy consumption of an entire blockchain.
  - lottin 5y ago
    The energy consumption of a blockchain is not publicly available anywhere. What are you talking about?
    - sgt101 5y ago
      there are estimates available : https://www.forbes.com/sites/philippsandner/2021/11/19/bitcoin-co2-emissions-from-an-investor-perspective-and-how-to-compensate-them/?sh=59379dac8c1c https://www.forbes.com/sites/philippsandner/2021/11/19/bitco...
  - 8note 5y ago
    Which block chains require sharing the amount of CO2 released while adding a new block? How do the non accepted blocks get counted?

threeseed 5y ago

You say that Web3 and NFT results in more transparency. But I work for a bank and our money laundering systems and processes automatically kick in for suspicious transactions and those over a certain amount. We will freeze transactions until we conduct due diligence aiming to identity the true parties e.g by unsheathing shell companies as well as the nature and intent of the transaction. And this is through a range of methods including requesting supplemental documentation and involving law enforcement. Can you clarify for any of the million dollar Bored Ape Yacht Club purchases who the true parties are given that supposedly this information can be derived from the blockchain ?

baxtr 5y ago
Interesting, we have different view points on similar industries. I work for an insurer and we see a lot cyber related theft and fraud, especially in the financial industry but also in other industries. Often the people are from outside the company, but very often they have people inside the company. In most cases the money can’t be recovered because it gets quickly wired to countries like Nigeria or HK. It’s a whole industry. Completely opaque because no company likes to talk about the losses. These things are handled quietly. On a different level: I believe many structured products purchased by private consumers are at least a rip-off and could be categorized as scam. Take for example life insurances sold by brokers with lifetime contracts yielding almost no interest whatsoever. There is a constant battle between regulators, lawyers and companies.
- oblio 5y ago
  The thing is, the incentives won't change. Whoever's going to push web3 will still want that opacity, it's a feature, not a bug. They'll want it to make money and to protect and hide their money. Plus you can't have it both ways, either cryptocurrencies are somehow, magically, privacy protecting and anonymous, or you have transparency. It's impossible to have both.
- threeseed 5y ago
  > There is a constant battle between regulators, lawyers and companies Which has unquestionably benefited consumers. If you look at the financial system 50 years ago and compare it to today consumers have far more rights and protections. And the system continues to learn and improve e.g. requiring banks to hold more reserve capital and increasing the amount of deposit insurance. Problem for Web3 is that governments, regulators and the legal system do not play a central role like in Web2. And so all of the safety nets built up over these years will evaporate and consumers will suffer.

root_axis 5y ago

> My take on crypto at this point is very simple: At least we have the transparency. There are so many scams going on in the financial industry. But it's hard to undercover, because all is opaque. How do you square this idea with the fact that the cryptocurrency ecosystem is widely recognized as being disproportionately riddled with scams?

baxtr 5y ago
I am not sure if I understand your question? My whole point is that it is "recognized as being disproportionately riddled with scams" because of the transparency.

lottin 5y ago

> There are so many scams going on in the financial industry. But it's hard to undercover, because all is opaque. What scams?

baxtr 5y ago
I have explained this elsewhere in this thread. But just a very public example: Look-up the company Wirecard or google cum-ex fraud. Fraud on a huge level. All going on behind the curtains. We sometimes get a sneak peak when something on the level of Wirecard blows up. Just extrapolate that for a second to the entire economy.

JaimeThompson 5y ago

> At least we have the transparency. If that is true why do so many of the principles behind various web3 things keep their identities hidden? That is the opposite of transparency

baxtr 5y ago
I agree and I am not trying to defend those people. At the same time you rarely ask for the identities of bankers or people running scam company since you don't know about the fraud in the first place. You need the New York Times to go investigate and uncover. With web3 you just need to login into twitter and follow-up the transactions. That's a huge advantage from my perspective.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  For federally chartered banks the names of all the executives and major shareholders are public records and I do search such things before doing business with a bank. I just realized I haven't had coffee so off to have that so I can write in a way that doesn't make me sound like a jerk.
  - baxtr 5y ago
    No worries, you didn't come across as such :) Enjoy your well-deserved Sunday coffee!