26 ms·

I think you are ignoring his first test. "Are they committing genocide?"

gruez 5y ago
Well wasn't clear whether there's a logical AND or OR between the two. In case it's OR, would you say that interventions in china[1], iraq[2], Somalia[3], Kosovo[4], Cambodia[5] would be justified? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Yazidis_by_the_Islamic_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Yazidis_by_the_Isl... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaaq_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaaq_genocide [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  From a purely moral standpoint, we should probably go to war with China as we are very much ignoring genocide there right now. Our response was to sanction a few provincial level officials, but we still participated in the Olympics. Pretty pathetic response on our part overall. With that said, from a real world perspective, I'm not signing up to go to war with China as we are looking at an end of the world scenario if that happens. I don't think China is our match militarily but what else do they have in their biolabs and what would they be willing to unleash if they were losing. An estimated 3% (70–85 million people) of the world population at the time was killed in WWII, how many would die in a war between us and China? Short of armed conflict though we should be doing everything in our power to disconnect ourselves economically from them. We should be prioritizing manufacturing in the US.
- pydry 5y ago
  American intervention in other genocides (e.g. Kosovo) led to genocide being kicked into high gear. Arguably it did in WW2 as well. The Nazis originally planned to dump the Jews in Africa, not kill them. The plans for the Nazis industrial slaughter were approved shortly after the US entered the war and the Nazis were slowly being boxed in. The fact that Germany reacted to the US entering the war with industrial slaughter doesnt mean that the US was wrong to go to war of course, but it underscores the fact that by default military intervention makes everything worse - especially for the most vulnerable.
  - danaris 5y ago
    "We should let genocides happen, because if we try to make them stop, the people committing them panic and realize they will have to speed up to be able to kill as many people as they want to" is not the gotcha argument you think it is.
    - pydry 5y ago
      If that's what you thought my argument was then my argument isnt the argument you think it is.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    This is quite wrong. To the best of our knowledge (it's hard to be sure about this, so there is some genuine controversy still) the industrial slaughter of Jews was meant to double as a convenient 'test run' for Generalplan Ost, viz. the industrial slaughter of practically everyone in the 'East' that the Nazis were then seeking to conquer as their projected 'Lebensraum'. The Nazis were far more evil than anyone would have expected knowing about the Holocaust alone.

Well wasn't clear whether there's a logical AND or OR between the two. In case it's OR, would you say that interventions in china[1], iraq[2], Somalia[3], Kosovo[4], Cambodia[5] would be justified? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Yazidis_by_the_Islamic_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Yazidis_by_the_Isl... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaaq_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaaq_genocide [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide

wonderwonder 5y ago
From a purely moral standpoint, we should probably go to war with China as we are very much ignoring genocide there right now. Our response was to sanction a few provincial level officials, but we still participated in the Olympics. Pretty pathetic response on our part overall. With that said, from a real world perspective, I'm not signing up to go to war with China as we are looking at an end of the world scenario if that happens. I don't think China is our match militarily but what else do they have in their biolabs and what would they be willing to unleash if they were losing. An estimated 3% (70–85 million people) of the world population at the time was killed in WWII, how many would die in a war between us and China? Short of armed conflict though we should be doing everything in our power to disconnect ourselves economically from them. We should be prioritizing manufacturing in the US.
pydry 5y ago
American intervention in other genocides (e.g. Kosovo) led to genocide being kicked into high gear. Arguably it did in WW2 as well. The Nazis originally planned to dump the Jews in Africa, not kill them. The plans for the Nazis industrial slaughter were approved shortly after the US entered the war and the Nazis were slowly being boxed in. The fact that Germany reacted to the US entering the war with industrial slaughter doesnt mean that the US was wrong to go to war of course, but it underscores the fact that by default military intervention makes everything worse - especially for the most vulnerable.
- danaris 5y ago
  "We should let genocides happen, because if we try to make them stop, the people committing them panic and realize they will have to speed up to be able to kill as many people as they want to" is not the gotcha argument you think it is.
  - pydry 5y ago
    If that's what you thought my argument was then my argument isnt the argument you think it is.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  This is quite wrong. To the best of our knowledge (it's hard to be sure about this, so there is some genuine controversy still) the industrial slaughter of Jews was meant to double as a convenient 'test run' for Generalplan Ost, viz. the industrial slaughter of practically everyone in the 'East' that the Nazis were then seeking to conquer as their projected 'Lebensraum'. The Nazis were far more evil than anyone would have expected knowing about the Holocaust alone.