9 ms·

Thousands of Planes Are Flying Empty and No One Can Stop Them

43 points by cwwc 5y ago

abirch 5y ago
Airports can stop these flights but it's not in their financial interests to do so. Seems like Airports could just fine the airlines for unused slots. If the fine is less than cost of the flights everyone would win.
- eclipticplane 5y ago
  Or just recognize that a global pandemic is worthwhile changing the rules temporarily. We changed a thousand other rules and social norms...
Reichhardt 5y ago
Air travel won't be back to normal (if that's even the intention) until vaccination, mask, and testing requirements are abandoned. Sitting on an 11-hour plane ride with a German woman shouting at you every 30 minutes that your mask is too low (my experience flying from the US to Berlin last week) is a very unpleasant experience.
- patrick451 5y ago
  Indeed. Myself and many I know have simply stopped flying altogether for this reason. These days, if I can't drive, I simply don't go.
- vb6sp6 5y ago
  Seems to me like there was a simple solution
- stevage 5y ago
  That won't fix it. The world is kind of split between those who see covid as dangerous and those who don't. Ditch all these requirements and the former group stops travelling.
  - hirako2000 5y ago
    It could fix it. Some airlines may opt to serve fearful passengers by maintaining safety restrictions, while others would rather serve the risk takers and let passengers do as before the pandemic. or the same airliner having many flights per day for the same route could reasonably offer both options. That's pretty much what happened before restaurants were forced to ban smoking altogether. There was non smoking areas and smoking areas, and some restaurants entirely non smoking, and some allowing smoking anywhere. I don't want those days back but it worked. it's not the most cost efficient but better than have half customers abandon the service altogether. To open the possibility to see it work, restrictions as a blanket regulation first need to drop to let service providers and their customers base figure things out. It's not ideal, but the current situation is even less ideal in term of business and also universal access to flight travel. Why should the flight regulation be dropped? to me on the simple basis that it's perfectly legal for me to rent a van, take 11 other people with me and do a 17h road trip without anybody masked, without anyone vaccinated, nor tested. and I could charge for that trip. it isn't a perfect parallel but I doubt the spread risk is higher on a 4h flight than on a 17h van trip, probably the contrary. Some could advocate to address the logical flaw and regulate van trips as well, the same advocates would then complain 6 months later that they see too many nearly empty vans on the road. Opinions are debatable, and I don't engage in that debate there. Logic should be universal, I beg everyone to give some respect to logic whatever path we take.
    - nate_meurer 5y ago
      I agree, but it a few months it won't matter. As omicron recedes (and barring the emergence of another scary variant) the segment of the population that remains frightened enough to stay off of places and out of restaurants will rapidly shrink into economic insignificance.
      - hirako2000 5y ago
        Until yet another variant is announced.
    - llampx 5y ago
- rnk 5y ago
  You should be wearing your mask over your mouth and nose though. There could definitely be someone there who because of a medical condition cannot be immunized. Like my own kid. Everyone wants to throw away their masks but what's going to happen for people they can't get immunized?
  - nate_meurer 5y ago
    I have seen no evidence that covid can be spread via nasal respiration. Covid spreads through droplets and aerosols. Normal nasal respiration produces no droplets or aerosols, and even a very hard nasal expiration can produce only a few hundred droplets at most, and usually far less. Contrast this to a single sneeze or hard cough which can produce millions of droplets and a cloud of infectious aerosol. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7293495/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7293495/] I believe evidence supports the role of masks as spit shields. But the whole charade of masking on planes and in restaurants is completely useless, since everybody removes their mask completely for every meal, snack, and drink.
  - tinus_hn 5y ago
    People aren’t going to wear masks forever and COVID is never going away. So what’s going to happen to people who can’t get immunized? They’re just going to have to choose between biting the bullet and taking on the risk, or safely stay inside forever. Probably not what you want to hear but there simply is no way around it. Perhaps someone can invent a mask that filters air coming in so they can protect themselves but as of yet, it doesn’t exist.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    They should isolate or use sufficient protective equipment. Rest of the world can't be forced to suffer for the few.
- ahartmetz 5y ago
  > with a German woman shouting at you every 30 minutes that your mask is too low She did this for no reason at all, presumably... /s
  - nate_meurer 5y ago
    And then everyone on the plane removes their mask completely while they eat, multiple times on an international flight. So yes, it was literally for no reason at all.
    - ahartmetz 5y ago
      Consider this: it is not possible to make rules that appear sensible in every possible situation, yet if you don't have any rules, you also get no effect.
      - nate_meurer 5y ago
        No, what we have here is exactly that: a rule with no effect. If everyone on a crowded plane removes their masks for extended periods of time, multiple times during a flight, then what exactly is the "effect" of wearing them at other times? Do you imagine covid becomes less transmissible once dinner is served? Same with restaurants, where we are told we have to wear masks in order to walk to our tables, but we can remove them once seated, and proceed to eat, drink, talk, laugh, and make merry unmasked, because apparently the mere act of sitting deactivates covid. These are not effective rules in any sense. They are purely cargo cult.
        adriancr 5y ago
        so what stopped you from complying?, the fact that the rule was stupid was sufficient motivation for you to disregard it and annoy a flight attendant enough that you get screamed at and have your trip made unpleasant? (and possibly annoy and make other people uncomfortable as well?) What would have been your reaction had a passenger politely asked you to put it on properly as everyone else? (asking since I would do that and not sure what to expect anymore)
jtsiskin 5y ago
I don’t get it. Why should the airline care if you actually fly the plane or not? Every 6 months auction off all the slots. Then use the slot however you want. If you want to retain the slot, you have to pay higher than the other bidders.
- Axien 5y ago
  You can’t reroute and change routes every six months based upon a stupid auction.
- et2o 5y ago
  The number of slots is limited. Am airline not using a spot could be replaced by one that will. This is good because it allows more travelers to travel.
- adriancr 5y ago
  It puts pressure on prices. They need to make minimum amount of flights, if not enough passengers options are to lower prices, take loss or cancel flights... due to the rule, they cant just cancel flights.
Grimburger 5y ago
I've caught a few of these flights last year going Singapore to Europe. Never more than ten passengers on a 787, I guess because of regulations they still need full flight crew, so often there's more staff than pax. It's such a pleasurable experience all round, shame they couldn't remove a bunch of seats in one area for some walking/stretching space.

43 points by cwwc 5y ago

Airports can stop these flights but it's not in their financial interests to do so. Seems like Airports could just fine the airlines for unused slots. If the fine is less than cost of the flights everyone would win.

eclipticplane 5y ago
Or just recognize that a global pandemic is worthwhile changing the rules temporarily. We changed a thousand other rules and social norms...

Reichhardt 5y ago

Air travel won't be back to normal (if that's even the intention) until vaccination, mask, and testing requirements are abandoned. Sitting on an 11-hour plane ride with a German woman shouting at you every 30 minutes that your mask is too low (my experience flying from the US to Berlin last week) is a very unpleasant experience.

patrick451 5y ago
Indeed. Myself and many I know have simply stopped flying altogether for this reason. These days, if I can't drive, I simply don't go.
vb6sp6 5y ago
Seems to me like there was a simple solution
stevage 5y ago
That won't fix it. The world is kind of split between those who see covid as dangerous and those who don't. Ditch all these requirements and the former group stops travelling.
- hirako2000 5y ago
  It could fix it. Some airlines may opt to serve fearful passengers by maintaining safety restrictions, while others would rather serve the risk takers and let passengers do as before the pandemic. or the same airliner having many flights per day for the same route could reasonably offer both options. That's pretty much what happened before restaurants were forced to ban smoking altogether. There was non smoking areas and smoking areas, and some restaurants entirely non smoking, and some allowing smoking anywhere. I don't want those days back but it worked. it's not the most cost efficient but better than have half customers abandon the service altogether. To open the possibility to see it work, restrictions as a blanket regulation first need to drop to let service providers and their customers base figure things out. It's not ideal, but the current situation is even less ideal in term of business and also universal access to flight travel. Why should the flight regulation be dropped? to me on the simple basis that it's perfectly legal for me to rent a van, take 11 other people with me and do a 17h road trip without anybody masked, without anyone vaccinated, nor tested. and I could charge for that trip. it isn't a perfect parallel but I doubt the spread risk is higher on a 4h flight than on a 17h van trip, probably the contrary. Some could advocate to address the logical flaw and regulate van trips as well, the same advocates would then complain 6 months later that they see too many nearly empty vans on the road. Opinions are debatable, and I don't engage in that debate there. Logic should be universal, I beg everyone to give some respect to logic whatever path we take.
  - nate_meurer 5y ago
    I agree, but it a few months it won't matter. As omicron recedes (and barring the emergence of another scary variant) the segment of the population that remains frightened enough to stay off of places and out of restaurants will rapidly shrink into economic insignificance.
    - hirako2000 5y ago
      Until yet another variant is announced.
  - llampx 5y ago
rnk 5y ago
You should be wearing your mask over your mouth and nose though. There could definitely be someone there who because of a medical condition cannot be immunized. Like my own kid. Everyone wants to throw away their masks but what's going to happen for people they can't get immunized?
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  I have seen no evidence that covid can be spread via nasal respiration. Covid spreads through droplets and aerosols. Normal nasal respiration produces no droplets or aerosols, and even a very hard nasal expiration can produce only a few hundred droplets at most, and usually far less. Contrast this to a single sneeze or hard cough which can produce millions of droplets and a cloud of infectious aerosol. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7293495/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7293495/] I believe evidence supports the role of masks as spit shields. But the whole charade of masking on planes and in restaurants is completely useless, since everybody removes their mask completely for every meal, snack, and drink.
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  People aren’t going to wear masks forever and COVID is never going away. So what’s going to happen to people who can’t get immunized? They’re just going to have to choose between biting the bullet and taking on the risk, or safely stay inside forever. Probably not what you want to hear but there simply is no way around it. Perhaps someone can invent a mask that filters air coming in so they can protect themselves but as of yet, it doesn’t exist.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  They should isolate or use sufficient protective equipment. Rest of the world can't be forced to suffer for the few.
ahartmetz 5y ago
> with a German woman shouting at you every 30 minutes that your mask is too low She did this for no reason at all, presumably... /s
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  And then everyone on the plane removes their mask completely while they eat, multiple times on an international flight. So yes, it was literally for no reason at all.
  - ahartmetz 5y ago
    Consider this: it is not possible to make rules that appear sensible in every possible situation, yet if you don't have any rules, you also get no effect.
    - nate_meurer 5y ago
      No, what we have here is exactly that: a rule with no effect. If everyone on a crowded plane removes their masks for extended periods of time, multiple times during a flight, then what exactly is the "effect" of wearing them at other times? Do you imagine covid becomes less transmissible once dinner is served? Same with restaurants, where we are told we have to wear masks in order to walk to our tables, but we can remove them once seated, and proceed to eat, drink, talk, laugh, and make merry unmasked, because apparently the mere act of sitting deactivates covid. These are not effective rules in any sense. They are purely cargo cult.
      - adriancr 5y ago
        so what stopped you from complying?, the fact that the rule was stupid was sufficient motivation for you to disregard it and annoy a flight attendant enough that you get screamed at and have your trip made unpleasant? (and possibly annoy and make other people uncomfortable as well?) What would have been your reaction had a passenger politely asked you to put it on properly as everyone else? (asking since I would do that and not sure what to expect anymore)

jtsiskin 5y ago

I don’t get it. Why should the airline care if you actually fly the plane or not? Every 6 months auction off all the slots. Then use the slot however you want. If you want to retain the slot, you have to pay higher than the other bidders.

Axien 5y ago
You can’t reroute and change routes every six months based upon a stupid auction.
et2o 5y ago
The number of slots is limited. Am airline not using a spot could be replaced by one that will. This is good because it allows more travelers to travel.
adriancr 5y ago
It puts pressure on prices. They need to make minimum amount of flights, if not enough passengers options are to lower prices, take loss or cancel flights... due to the rule, they cant just cancel flights.

Grimburger 5y ago

I've caught a few of these flights last year going Singapore to Europe. Never more than ten passengers on a 787, I guess because of regulations they still need full flight crew, so often there's more staff than pax. It's such a pleasurable experience all round, shame they couldn't remove a bunch of seats in one area for some walking/stretching space.