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This is news to me. I’m not super informed regarding cryptocurrencies, but it seems like this would also affect erc-20 “fungible” tokens on Ethereum, wouldn’t i

by garren 5y ago

This is news to me. I’m not super informed regarding cryptocurrencies, but it seems like this would also affect erc-20 “fungible” tokens on Ethereum, wouldn’t it? Do such tokens not also have traceable histories?

scyclow 5y ago
I wouldn't think so. BTC uses an unspent transaction output model, which is like breaking up a plot of land into smaller pieces, and treating each square inch as fungible. ERC20 tokens are based on an accounting model, so you're just incrementing and decrementing balances -- nothing to trace there.
- magicjosh 5y ago
  I never thought of it that way. I wonder what the article's author thinks about Ethereum's privacy.
- olalonde 5y ago
  The "accounting model" is even easier to trace, I'm not sure what you mean by that. For example, here are all USDT transactions: https://etherscan.io/token/0xdac17f958d2ee523a2206206994597c13d831ec7 https://etherscan.io/token/0xdac17f958d2ee523a2206206994597c...
  - magicjosh 5y ago
    Here's what I took away from the suggestion. Let's say I send you $100 USDT and Osama Bin Laden sends you $100 USDT. Then you send Justin Beiber $100 USDT and keep the remaining $100 USDT. Where are the tainted tokens? For Bitcoin these are UTXOs which are easy to trace, but not so for Ethereum and its tokens which just rely on accounting not UTXOs. Right?
    - lossolo 5y ago
      If Bin Laden sends $100 USDT to you, your address will be tainted because Osama sent you coin and proof of that will be in Transfer Log of ERC20 token. So if you send any amount of that token anywhere, recipient address will be also tainted, doesn't matter if it was Bieber part or Osama part.
      - magicjosh 5y ago
        Got it, so now Justin Beiber's wallet is tainted too.
    - olalonde 5y ago
      > Right? No. > Let's say I send you $100 USDT and Osama Bin Laden sends you $100 USDT. Then you send Justin Beiber $100 USDT and keep the remaining $100 USDT. That's a misconception, you can do that exact same thing with Bitcoin and you are left with the same question. Bitcoin outputs can be combined into a single output (and they routinely are). See this diagram: http://syskall.com/bitcoin-notes/svg/transaction.svg http://syskall.com/bitcoin-notes/svg/transaction.svg Even Ethereum's rationale acknowledges that Bitcoin's UTXO model provides a higher degree of privacy: https://eth.wiki/fundamentals/design-rationale https://eth.wiki/fundamentals/design-rationale
olalonde 5y ago
Yes, Ethereum is even worse for privacy because it doesn't allow CoinJoin style mixing.

by garren 5y ago

scyclow 5y ago

I wouldn't think so. BTC uses an unspent transaction output model, which is like breaking up a plot of land into smaller pieces, and treating each square inch as fungible. ERC20 tokens are based on an accounting model, so you're just incrementing and decrementing balances -- nothing to trace there.

magicjosh 5y ago
I never thought of it that way. I wonder what the article's author thinks about Ethereum's privacy.
olalonde 5y ago
The "accounting model" is even easier to trace, I'm not sure what you mean by that. For example, here are all USDT transactions: https://etherscan.io/token/0xdac17f958d2ee523a2206206994597c13d831ec7 https://etherscan.io/token/0xdac17f958d2ee523a2206206994597c...
- magicjosh 5y ago
  Here's what I took away from the suggestion. Let's say I send you $100 USDT and Osama Bin Laden sends you $100 USDT. Then you send Justin Beiber $100 USDT and keep the remaining $100 USDT. Where are the tainted tokens? For Bitcoin these are UTXOs which are easy to trace, but not so for Ethereum and its tokens which just rely on accounting not UTXOs. Right?
  - lossolo 5y ago
    If Bin Laden sends $100 USDT to you, your address will be tainted because Osama sent you coin and proof of that will be in Transfer Log of ERC20 token. So if you send any amount of that token anywhere, recipient address will be also tainted, doesn't matter if it was Bieber part or Osama part.
    - magicjosh 5y ago
      Got it, so now Justin Beiber's wallet is tainted too.
  - olalonde 5y ago
    > Right? No. > Let's say I send you $100 USDT and Osama Bin Laden sends you $100 USDT. Then you send Justin Beiber $100 USDT and keep the remaining $100 USDT. That's a misconception, you can do that exact same thing with Bitcoin and you are left with the same question. Bitcoin outputs can be combined into a single output (and they routinely are). See this diagram: http://syskall.com/bitcoin-notes/svg/transaction.svg http://syskall.com/bitcoin-notes/svg/transaction.svg Even Ethereum's rationale acknowledges that Bitcoin's UTXO model provides a higher degree of privacy: https://eth.wiki/fundamentals/design-rationale https://eth.wiki/fundamentals/design-rationale

olalonde 5y ago

Yes, Ethereum is even worse for privacy because it doesn't allow CoinJoin style mixing.