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> that involves other people well if we're going this abstract then everything everywhere involves "other people". Pragmatically mining, even through a pool d

by toolz 5y ago

> that involves other people well if we're going this abstract then everything everywhere involves "other people". Pragmatically mining, even through a pool does not show who you are or who you are associated with as no one can associate you with anyone if they can't associate your coins with you. This idea that exchanges will stop handling coins from flagged addresses is nonsense - DEXes already solve that problem anyways, so an exchange will be willingly giving up business for legit customers who may have happened upon a coin with a less-than-legit history and they'll do nothing to prevent money with illicit history from making its way onto their platform.

vintermann 5y ago
Distributed exchanges by their nature only trade one type of crypto-asset for another. The problem always comes when you try to move value out. Whatever you trade for in your DEX, if you want to buy a house with it you'll need to be able to account for how you got it. Those who enforce money laundering laws don't mess around: If your money is clean, you're just shooting yourself in the foot by erasing the record of how you got it.
- toolz 5y ago
  I'm in the process of buying a house, haven't had to prove a single thing after I traded into fiat and if I had really wanted to I could have traded into fiat via direct trades using sites like localbitcoin.com or similar. Guilty until proven innocent is an untenable practice if you want to run a profitable business. The market will sort out any ridiculous practices that makes you prove you haven't laundered in order to participate in a market and as I've said, the alternatives already exist. edit: as for DEXes that's my whole point, you trade a crypto with "bad history" for a crypto without bad history and just like that even the strictest exchanges will happily give you an off ramp into fiat
  - vintermann 5y ago
    > haven't had to prove a single thing Even in your jurisdiction, you may soon have to. From the linked article, you can infer that you got lucky - your attempt to cash out might have been stopped by an exchange, if you did it a little later or with a little dirtier coins. > and if I had really wanted to I could have traded into fiat via direct trades using sites like localbitcoin.com or similar Good luck meeting random strangers and trading BTC for cash with them safely AND anonymously. You're lucky if you get even one of those two. > Guilty until proven innocent is an untenable practice Tell that to financial crimes investigators, whatever they're called where you live. As I said, they don't mess around. They're not reasonable. The price for operating in the legal economy is that you have to be able to account for your assets. The exchanges don't do this because they want to, but because they have money laundering cops breathing down their necks - and you will too, if you're silly enough to try to cash out significant amounts through localbitcoin or similar.
    - toolz 5y ago
      > Even in your jurisdiction, you may soon have to and as I've stated, using a DEX to trade from dirty coins into clean coins is cheap and simple. I think this whole thing is just paranoia, but in the event it actually does become an issue for law abiding citizens (such as myself) the market has already accounted for the nonsense and given me an avenue to continue to operate effectively and legally. > Good luck meeting random strangers and trading BTC for cash with them safely AND anonymously. You're lucky if you get even one of those two. I've done both frequently and with nothing but success - I'm wondering if you've had experiences otherwise as I know plenty of people who use that site and have had nothing but success. > if you're silly enough to try to cash out significant amounts through localbitcoin or similar I'm sorry, what are you talking about? Legitimate services with legitimate clean money is not silly.
      - vintermann 5y ago
        > using a DEX to trade from dirty coins into clean coins is cheap and simple Cheap, but not free. You're paying a premium. Which illustrates the article's point. As exchanges are reined in, and off-the-record bitcoin for cash trades are cracked down on (google "localbitcoin arrests" to get an idea - that should also answer your two other lines), this premium will grow, and it may well grow enough to make the whole thing impractical.
        toolz 5y ago
        so if trading USD into other currencies isn't free then USD isn't fungible? I'm not following your point
  - throwhauser 5y ago
    > you trade a crypto with "bad history" for a crypto without bad history and just like that even the strictest exchanges will happily give you an off ramp into fiat Who is on the other side of that trade? If it's an identifiable DEX then doesn't that only work until cryptocurrencies from that DEX are defined as "bad"?

by toolz 5y ago

vintermann 5y ago

Distributed exchanges by their nature only trade one type of crypto-asset for another. The problem always comes when you try to move value out. Whatever you trade for in your DEX, if you want to buy a house with it you'll need to be able to account for how you got it. Those who enforce money laundering laws don't mess around: If your money is clean, you're just shooting yourself in the foot by erasing the record of how you got it.

toolz 5y ago
I'm in the process of buying a house, haven't had to prove a single thing after I traded into fiat and if I had really wanted to I could have traded into fiat via direct trades using sites like localbitcoin.com or similar. Guilty until proven innocent is an untenable practice if you want to run a profitable business. The market will sort out any ridiculous practices that makes you prove you haven't laundered in order to participate in a market and as I've said, the alternatives already exist. edit: as for DEXes that's my whole point, you trade a crypto with "bad history" for a crypto without bad history and just like that even the strictest exchanges will happily give you an off ramp into fiat
- vintermann 5y ago
  > haven't had to prove a single thing Even in your jurisdiction, you may soon have to. From the linked article, you can infer that you got lucky - your attempt to cash out might have been stopped by an exchange, if you did it a little later or with a little dirtier coins. > and if I had really wanted to I could have traded into fiat via direct trades using sites like localbitcoin.com or similar Good luck meeting random strangers and trading BTC for cash with them safely AND anonymously. You're lucky if you get even one of those two. > Guilty until proven innocent is an untenable practice Tell that to financial crimes investigators, whatever they're called where you live. As I said, they don't mess around. They're not reasonable. The price for operating in the legal economy is that you have to be able to account for your assets. The exchanges don't do this because they want to, but because they have money laundering cops breathing down their necks - and you will too, if you're silly enough to try to cash out significant amounts through localbitcoin or similar.
  - toolz 5y ago
    > Even in your jurisdiction, you may soon have to and as I've stated, using a DEX to trade from dirty coins into clean coins is cheap and simple. I think this whole thing is just paranoia, but in the event it actually does become an issue for law abiding citizens (such as myself) the market has already accounted for the nonsense and given me an avenue to continue to operate effectively and legally. > Good luck meeting random strangers and trading BTC for cash with them safely AND anonymously. You're lucky if you get even one of those two. I've done both frequently and with nothing but success - I'm wondering if you've had experiences otherwise as I know plenty of people who use that site and have had nothing but success. > if you're silly enough to try to cash out significant amounts through localbitcoin or similar I'm sorry, what are you talking about? Legitimate services with legitimate clean money is not silly.
    - vintermann 5y ago
      > using a DEX to trade from dirty coins into clean coins is cheap and simple Cheap, but not free. You're paying a premium. Which illustrates the article's point. As exchanges are reined in, and off-the-record bitcoin for cash trades are cracked down on (google "localbitcoin arrests" to get an idea - that should also answer your two other lines), this premium will grow, and it may well grow enough to make the whole thing impractical.
      - toolz 5y ago
        so if trading USD into other currencies isn't free then USD isn't fungible? I'm not following your point
- throwhauser 5y ago
  > you trade a crypto with "bad history" for a crypto without bad history and just like that even the strictest exchanges will happily give you an off ramp into fiat Who is on the other side of that trade? If it's an identifiable DEX then doesn't that only work until cryptocurrencies from that DEX are defined as "bad"?