4 ms·

Glenn Greenwald comments on Joe Rogan controversy

19 points by sva_ 5y ago

greenyoda 5y ago
Greenwald's quote of Orwell in this thread, about press censorship by the compliant British media, is definitely worth reading. The specific tweet is: https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1490061112330575872 https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1490061112330575872 The quote comes from Orwell's proposed preface to Animal Farm, entitled The Freedom of the Press, which can be found here in its entirety: https://orwell.ru/library/novels/Animal_Farm/english/efp_go https://orwell.ru/library/novels/Animal_Farm/english/efp_go (Greenwald quotes the two paragraphs beginning with "Any fairminded person".)
- vanusa 5y ago
  Except that Rogan's program isn't about "unpopular ideas" or "inconvenient facts". Let alone "challenging prevailing orthodoxy". If you seriously think Rogan's content falls in that category - then you'd probably say the same for the kind of pronouncements made by the Flat Earth Society as well.
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    In what sense is disputing vaccines not challenging prevailing orthodoxy? I think most people who challenge the prevailing orthodoxy will probably be wrong. But, it seems like only people who correctly challenge it get respected.
    - vanusa 5y ago
      Because there's no substance to these "challenges". It's just about pushing buttons and creating the appearance of controversy - nothing more. It seems like only people who correctly challenge it get respected. It's not about that. There's "wrong", and "not even wrong". Rogan's pronouncements fall squarely in the latter category. In addition to inducing people to harm themselves and others.
      - 4oo4 5y ago
        So anything challenging orthodoxy needs to be substantive to be tolerated as free speech? Who decides what is substantive? Even shit clickbait-y speech deserves tolerance just like "substantive" speech, whatever that means. I really don't like Joe Rogan and his brand of wishy-washy pseudointellectualism, but based on the sheer variety of people he's had on over the years, dismissing all of his content as clickbait and contrarian for controversy's sake is a mischaracterization. Who else has interviewed both Bernie Sanders and Alex Jones? Even if you don't like him I think he at the very least deserves respect for having such a wide range of guest on his show, and it's disingenuous to dismiss him entirely as unsubstantive. "In addition to inducing people to harm themselves and others". Again, who decides what is harmful?
        vanusa 5y ago
        Again, who decides what is harmful? Anyone with a 9th grade education or so. Which is sufficient to discern that his advice to 21-year olds as to whether they should get vaccinated is patently unsubstantiated -- and likely to cause harm.
        ALittleLight 5y ago
        Great, I have a 9th grade education and decide it's not harmful.
      - megaman821 5y ago
        If a comedian/UFC commentator is communicating more effectively than the CDC, my first thought isn't cancel the comedian. What is the end-game here? There is amount of "canceling" that suddenly leads people to be more rational and critically thinking.
      - ALittleLight 5y ago
        First, you seem to be shifting the goalposts a bit. We've gone from "Rogan isn't challenging orthodoxy" to "Rogan's challenges to orthodoxy aren't substantive in my view". Second, perhaps I'm just not understanding you, but your comment doesn't read to me as coming from someone who has listened to Rogan's podcast. Rogan doesn't monologue about his views on the vaccine. He has on domain experts with controversial opinions and has a conversation with them.
  - greenyoda 5y ago
    What Rogan said is not the important thing here (I don't even know what he said, because I've never listened to any of his content). What's important, as Greenwald said, is that the White House Press Secretary asked Spotify to "do more" to silence people like Rogan. That disregard by the government of basic press freedom is troubling. It could be Rogan today, but someone you care about tomorrow.
    - vanusa 5y ago
      I see what you're driving at -- but on balance I just don't see a slippery slope here. Whether the executive branch is technically entitled to make such pronouncements or not -- or whether they "should" -- their rationale is that this isn't so much a basic press freedom issue, as a shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater issue. I can see some pushback on that stance -- but not all that much. And at the end of the day - it's not like their pronouncements have any coercive weight. It's just an instance of them using their office as a bully pulpit (which every presidential office has, to one degree or another). That is to say: an exercise of their own freedom of speech. And I definite get GG's point also -- that the government's "stance" doesn't need to be coercive for it to be effective. But he's missing the boat, nonetheless. He's making Rogan out to be the likes of Galileo or Andrei Sakharov. Or a real-life Winston Smith. I don't where Greenwald thinks he's going with that -- but that's where (to my ears) his language becomes manipulative and intellectually dishonest.
annoyingnoob 5y ago
I guess twitter is useless without a login these days.
- greenyoda 5y ago
  I can read it OK, without a Twitter account, using Firefox with the uBlock Origin addon.
- sva_ 5y ago
  You can block the login prompt with a ublock filter, if you happen to use that extension: twitter.com##[id^="layers"] > [class^="css-"]:has([dir^="auto"]):not(:has([aria-expanded])):has(a[href^="/"]):has-text(/Log in|Sign Up/) twitter.com##html[dir]:style(overflow: auto !important;)
  - greenyoda 5y ago
    Whatever set of standard filters I've configured with uBlock Origin already seems to do that. I've never had to add a special filter to block Twitter's logon (and I've never had a Twitter account).
    - sva_ 5y ago
      I just did a forced update of my uBlock filter lists and it seems to block the login nag by itself now. Weird, since it should have updated itself automatically.
  - annoyingnoob 5y ago
    Thanks, I'd rather just skip than put in any effort whatsoever. Twitter doesn't have much to offer me.
    - cylinder714 5y ago
      I read it in a a private tab in Firefox on Android, works a treat, no need for extraordinary measures.
xqcgrek2 5y ago
There's way too much geographic concentration of power in tech and government. The efficiencies don't seem to be worth it.
smt88 5y ago
It's worth pointing out that "cancelling" Rogan (getting him kicked off Spotify) would increase his audience back to what it was[1]. I don't know how you can call it censorship when his audience would become larger if he goes back to independent self-publishing. 1. https://www.theverge.com/22632213/joe-rogan-experience-spotify-exclusive-audience-reach https://www.theverge.com/22632213/joe-rogan-experience-spoti...
joenathanone 5y ago
So everyone is just ignoring this? https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/feb/05/joe-rogan-apologises-for-using-n-word-and-racist-planet-of-the-apes-story https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/feb/05/joe-rogan-ap... And this https://streamable.com/tzczna https://streamable.com/tzczna
- CodeGlitch 5y ago
  Not sure what you mean but it's being reported on everywhere? Either way Joe Rogan says some incredibly dumb, ill thought out things, but it's clear the MSM are out to get him now. Mob rule has now taken control.
listenallyall 5y ago
Why is this flagged?
- pomdapi 5y ago
  Dark PR firm doing its job.

19 points by sva_ 5y ago

Greenwald's quote of Orwell in this thread, about press censorship by the compliant British media, is definitely worth reading. The specific tweet is: https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1490061112330575872 https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1490061112330575872 The quote comes from Orwell's proposed preface to Animal Farm, entitled The Freedom of the Press, which can be found here in its entirety: https://orwell.ru/library/novels/Animal_Farm/english/efp_go https://orwell.ru/library/novels/Animal_Farm/english/efp_go (Greenwald quotes the two paragraphs beginning with "Any fairminded person".)

vanusa 5y ago
Except that Rogan's program isn't about "unpopular ideas" or "inconvenient facts". Let alone "challenging prevailing orthodoxy". If you seriously think Rogan's content falls in that category - then you'd probably say the same for the kind of pronouncements made by the Flat Earth Society as well.
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  In what sense is disputing vaccines not challenging prevailing orthodoxy? I think most people who challenge the prevailing orthodoxy will probably be wrong. But, it seems like only people who correctly challenge it get respected.
  - vanusa 5y ago
    Because there's no substance to these "challenges". It's just about pushing buttons and creating the appearance of controversy - nothing more. It seems like only people who correctly challenge it get respected. It's not about that. There's "wrong", and "not even wrong". Rogan's pronouncements fall squarely in the latter category. In addition to inducing people to harm themselves and others.
    - 4oo4 5y ago
      So anything challenging orthodoxy needs to be substantive to be tolerated as free speech? Who decides what is substantive? Even shit clickbait-y speech deserves tolerance just like "substantive" speech, whatever that means. I really don't like Joe Rogan and his brand of wishy-washy pseudointellectualism, but based on the sheer variety of people he's had on over the years, dismissing all of his content as clickbait and contrarian for controversy's sake is a mischaracterization. Who else has interviewed both Bernie Sanders and Alex Jones? Even if you don't like him I think he at the very least deserves respect for having such a wide range of guest on his show, and it's disingenuous to dismiss him entirely as unsubstantive. "In addition to inducing people to harm themselves and others". Again, who decides what is harmful?
      - vanusa 5y ago
        Again, who decides what is harmful? Anyone with a 9th grade education or so. Which is sufficient to discern that his advice to 21-year olds as to whether they should get vaccinated is patently unsubstantiated -- and likely to cause harm.
        ALittleLight 5y ago
        Great, I have a 9th grade education and decide it's not harmful.
    - megaman821 5y ago
      If a comedian/UFC commentator is communicating more effectively than the CDC, my first thought isn't cancel the comedian. What is the end-game here? There is amount of "canceling" that suddenly leads people to be more rational and critically thinking.
    - ALittleLight 5y ago
      First, you seem to be shifting the goalposts a bit. We've gone from "Rogan isn't challenging orthodoxy" to "Rogan's challenges to orthodoxy aren't substantive in my view". Second, perhaps I'm just not understanding you, but your comment doesn't read to me as coming from someone who has listened to Rogan's podcast. Rogan doesn't monologue about his views on the vaccine. He has on domain experts with controversial opinions and has a conversation with them.
- greenyoda 5y ago
  What Rogan said is not the important thing here (I don't even know what he said, because I've never listened to any of his content). What's important, as Greenwald said, is that the White House Press Secretary asked Spotify to "do more" to silence people like Rogan. That disregard by the government of basic press freedom is troubling. It could be Rogan today, but someone you care about tomorrow.
  - vanusa 5y ago
    I see what you're driving at -- but on balance I just don't see a slippery slope here. Whether the executive branch is technically entitled to make such pronouncements or not -- or whether they "should" -- their rationale is that this isn't so much a basic press freedom issue, as a shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater issue. I can see some pushback on that stance -- but not all that much. And at the end of the day - it's not like their pronouncements have any coercive weight. It's just an instance of them using their office as a bully pulpit (which every presidential office has, to one degree or another). That is to say: an exercise of their own freedom of speech. And I definite get GG's point also -- that the government's "stance" doesn't need to be coercive for it to be effective. But he's missing the boat, nonetheless. He's making Rogan out to be the likes of Galileo or Andrei Sakharov. Or a real-life Winston Smith. I don't where Greenwald thinks he's going with that -- but that's where (to my ears) his language becomes manipulative and intellectually dishonest.

annoyingnoob 5y ago

I guess twitter is useless without a login these days.

greenyoda 5y ago
I can read it OK, without a Twitter account, using Firefox with the uBlock Origin addon.
sva_ 5y ago
You can block the login prompt with a ublock filter, if you happen to use that extension: twitter.com##[id^="layers"] > [class^="css-"]:has([dir^="auto"]):not(:has([aria-expanded])):has(a[href^="/"]):has-text(/Log in|Sign Up/) twitter.com##html[dir]:style(overflow: auto !important;)
- greenyoda 5y ago
  Whatever set of standard filters I've configured with uBlock Origin already seems to do that. I've never had to add a special filter to block Twitter's logon (and I've never had a Twitter account).
  - sva_ 5y ago
    I just did a forced update of my uBlock filter lists and it seems to block the login nag by itself now. Weird, since it should have updated itself automatically.
- annoyingnoob 5y ago
  Thanks, I'd rather just skip than put in any effort whatsoever. Twitter doesn't have much to offer me.
  - cylinder714 5y ago
    I read it in a a private tab in Firefox on Android, works a treat, no need for extraordinary measures.

xqcgrek2 5y ago

There's way too much geographic concentration of power in tech and government. The efficiencies don't seem to be worth it.

smt88 5y ago

It's worth pointing out that "cancelling" Rogan (getting him kicked off Spotify) would increase his audience back to what it was[1]. I don't know how you can call it censorship when his audience would become larger if he goes back to independent self-publishing. 1. https://www.theverge.com/22632213/joe-rogan-experience-spotify-exclusive-audience-reach https://www.theverge.com/22632213/joe-rogan-experience-spoti...

joenathanone 5y ago

So everyone is just ignoring this? https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/feb/05/joe-rogan-apologises-for-using-n-word-and-racist-planet-of-the-apes-story https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/feb/05/joe-rogan-ap... And this https://streamable.com/tzczna https://streamable.com/tzczna

CodeGlitch 5y ago
Not sure what you mean but it's being reported on everywhere? Either way Joe Rogan says some incredibly dumb, ill thought out things, but it's clear the MSM are out to get him now. Mob rule has now taken control.

listenallyall 5y ago

Why is this flagged?

pomdapi 5y ago
Dark PR firm doing its job.