19 ms·

As I understand it, the convoy was sparked by a decree that truckers crossing the US/Canada border would have to either be vaccinated or go into 14 days of quar

by blast 5y ago

As I understand it, the convoy was sparked by a decree that truckers crossing the US/Canada border would have to either be vaccinated or go into 14 days of quarantine. The latter would effectively take away the livelihood of anyone whose job involved doing that frequently. I don't think it's very useful to argue that taking away someone's livelihood isn't "force", or to argue that people are just "choosing" to lose their livelihood. Sure it's not physical force but it's a pretty extreme level of coercion, and it's perfectly easy to understand both why people in that position would turn to their democratic right to protest, and also why a whole lot of vaccinated and pro-vaccine people would support them.

PierceJoy 5y ago
Your only taking away someone’s livelihood if being an unvaccinated trucker is their only option. The vast majority of jobs in Canada do not require a vaccine. Choices have consequences. Mandatory school vaccinations, mandatory military vaccinations, mandatory drug testing in many jobs, etc. Why did no one lose their minds over those things?
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  This vaccine uses a different technology than all previous vaccines. It bears almost nothing in common technologically with previous vaccines. As such extra skepticism is permissible.
  - PierceJoy 5y ago
    This is just vaccine misinformation. Anti vaxxers will already have some excuse for why "this" vaccine is different.
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      This is scientific fact. mRNA is completely different in operation than older degraded-virus vaccines, and to say otherwise is misinformation. The only things they have in common is the name and the end goal.
  - seized 5y ago
    A year or more ago, sure, a bit of skepticism is fine. At this point it's been well shown that it's safe and that being unvaccinated is much more dangerous. Time to grow up.
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      It is not scientifically possible to show that any substance is completely safe after one year. Anyone who says otherwise is selling you something. There are countless compounds (mercury, lead, smoking particles) which take years to show their harm and were once considered safe by science. Do I think the vaccine will join those ranks? No, but I don’t want to oversell it’s safety either.
- rizTay 5y ago
- _dain_ 5y ago
  >Choices have consequences. Yes, the powers that be chose to force an unnecessary vaccine on working class people, and this is the consequence. Can we quit using this sinister thought-terminating cliche?
  - PierceJoy 5y ago
    > Yes, the powers that be chose to force an unnecessary vaccine on working class people No one was forced to get a vaccine. Period.
    - _dain_ 5y ago
      "Do X or you're fired" -- this is coercion by any reasonable definition. If you think it's easy to just "get another job", you are speaking from a position of immense economic privilege. It's tantamount to "let them eat cake". Urbanites will regret their fickle treatment of the key workers who provide them with food and Amazon deliveries.
      - PierceJoy 5y ago
        > "Do X or you're fired" -- this is coercion by any reasonable definition. Do X or you're fired is literally the basis for all employment. > If you think it's easy to just "get another job", you are speaking from a position of immense economic privilege. It's tantamount to "let them eat cake". Demand for labour is immense right now. I'm sure you've noticed. People are fired all the time for a number of reasons. > Urbanites will regret their fickle treatment of the key workers who provide them with food and Amazon deliveries. They won't, because the vast majority of truckers are vaccinated, working, and against this occupation.
- rabuse 5y ago
  "Just learn to code bro" energy.
  - PierceJoy 5y ago
    You do know there are many more jobs in Canada than coding, right?
  - FpUser 5y ago
    Just for your information "bro": Big Canadian company that does much software development has sent mail to their (never mind employees) but subcontracting companies - get vaccinated or you are out.
- blast 5y ago
  I think you've effectively conceded the point here. Losing one's job is generally understood to be a catastrophic outcome for people in our society, especially when someone has been doing that job for a long time (and perhaps also doesn't have the educational level to get another job at anything close to the same compensation). It follows that "do X or you're fired" is a form of force or coercion. In fact that's so obvious in general that to narrow the definition of "force" to exclude it seems to be a case of special pleading. Threatening someone with a severe material consequence and then saying "it's not force because it's your choice" isn't an argument most people are going to accept, and I find it interesting that you're resorting to it, because it's surely not the strongest argument for your position.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    It is typical hypocritical government logic. That's what they say when fucking up one's life: Gov: it is not a punishment. Victim: But, but ... Gov: Sorry but it is your problem / choice / insert your favorite hypocritical BS
  - PierceJoy 5y ago
    > Losing one's job is generally understood to be a catastrophic outcome for people in our society, especially when someone has been doing that job for a long time (and perhaps also doesn't have the educational level to get another job at anything close to the same compensation) I haven't seen any mass protests about at-will employment. Why not? > It follows that "do X or you're fired" is a form of force or coercion. But we've had these things around for decades. Vaccines have been required in other jobs, tests have been required for jobs, and yet no mass protests. Why not? > Threatening someone with a severe material consequence and then saying "it's not force because it's your choice" isn't an argument most people are going to accept, and I find it interesting that you're resorting to it, because it's surely not the strongest argument for your position. It actually is the strongest argument, because it's true. No one is being forced.
    - bdowling 5y ago
      > I haven't seen any mass protests about at-will employment. Why not? The cases are not comparable because if an at-will employee loses a job with one employer, the employee can often find a job with another employer. > Vaccines have been required in other jobs, tests have been required for jobs, and yet no mass protests. Why not? The cases are not comparable because, as far as I know, there is no testing option in the Canadian regulation. Also, as far as I know, there is no exception made to the 14-day quarantine period for those who cannot be vaccinated because of either a negative reaction to a prior vaccine or deeply held religious convictions.

by blast 5y ago

PierceJoy 5y ago

Your only taking away someone’s livelihood if being an unvaccinated trucker is their only option. The vast majority of jobs in Canada do not require a vaccine. Choices have consequences. Mandatory school vaccinations, mandatory military vaccinations, mandatory drug testing in many jobs, etc. Why did no one lose their minds over those things?

gjsman-1000 5y ago
This vaccine uses a different technology than all previous vaccines. It bears almost nothing in common technologically with previous vaccines. As such extra skepticism is permissible.
- PierceJoy 5y ago
  This is just vaccine misinformation. Anti vaxxers will already have some excuse for why "this" vaccine is different.
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    This is scientific fact. mRNA is completely different in operation than older degraded-virus vaccines, and to say otherwise is misinformation. The only things they have in common is the name and the end goal.
- seized 5y ago
  A year or more ago, sure, a bit of skepticism is fine. At this point it's been well shown that it's safe and that being unvaccinated is much more dangerous. Time to grow up.
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    It is not scientifically possible to show that any substance is completely safe after one year. Anyone who says otherwise is selling you something. There are countless compounds (mercury, lead, smoking particles) which take years to show their harm and were once considered safe by science. Do I think the vaccine will join those ranks? No, but I don’t want to oversell it’s safety either.
rizTay 5y ago
_dain_ 5y ago
>Choices have consequences. Yes, the powers that be chose to force an unnecessary vaccine on working class people, and this is the consequence. Can we quit using this sinister thought-terminating cliche?
- PierceJoy 5y ago
  > Yes, the powers that be chose to force an unnecessary vaccine on working class people No one was forced to get a vaccine. Period.
  - _dain_ 5y ago
    "Do X or you're fired" -- this is coercion by any reasonable definition. If you think it's easy to just "get another job", you are speaking from a position of immense economic privilege. It's tantamount to "let them eat cake". Urbanites will regret their fickle treatment of the key workers who provide them with food and Amazon deliveries.
    - PierceJoy 5y ago
      > "Do X or you're fired" -- this is coercion by any reasonable definition. Do X or you're fired is literally the basis for all employment. > If you think it's easy to just "get another job", you are speaking from a position of immense economic privilege. It's tantamount to "let them eat cake". Demand for labour is immense right now. I'm sure you've noticed. People are fired all the time for a number of reasons. > Urbanites will regret their fickle treatment of the key workers who provide them with food and Amazon deliveries. They won't, because the vast majority of truckers are vaccinated, working, and against this occupation.
rabuse 5y ago
"Just learn to code bro" energy.
- PierceJoy 5y ago
  You do know there are many more jobs in Canada than coding, right?
- FpUser 5y ago
  Just for your information "bro": Big Canadian company that does much software development has sent mail to their (never mind employees) but subcontracting companies - get vaccinated or you are out.
blast 5y ago
I think you've effectively conceded the point here. Losing one's job is generally understood to be a catastrophic outcome for people in our society, especially when someone has been doing that job for a long time (and perhaps also doesn't have the educational level to get another job at anything close to the same compensation). It follows that "do X or you're fired" is a form of force or coercion. In fact that's so obvious in general that to narrow the definition of "force" to exclude it seems to be a case of special pleading. Threatening someone with a severe material consequence and then saying "it's not force because it's your choice" isn't an argument most people are going to accept, and I find it interesting that you're resorting to it, because it's surely not the strongest argument for your position.
- FpUser 5y ago
  It is typical hypocritical government logic. That's what they say when fucking up one's life: Gov: it is not a punishment. Victim: But, but ... Gov: Sorry but it is your problem / choice / insert your favorite hypocritical BS
- PierceJoy 5y ago
  > Losing one's job is generally understood to be a catastrophic outcome for people in our society, especially when someone has been doing that job for a long time (and perhaps also doesn't have the educational level to get another job at anything close to the same compensation) I haven't seen any mass protests about at-will employment. Why not? > It follows that "do X or you're fired" is a form of force or coercion. But we've had these things around for decades. Vaccines have been required in other jobs, tests have been required for jobs, and yet no mass protests. Why not? > Threatening someone with a severe material consequence and then saying "it's not force because it's your choice" isn't an argument most people are going to accept, and I find it interesting that you're resorting to it, because it's surely not the strongest argument for your position. It actually is the strongest argument, because it's true. No one is being forced.
  - bdowling 5y ago
    > I haven't seen any mass protests about at-will employment. Why not? The cases are not comparable because if an at-will employee loses a job with one employer, the employee can often find a job with another employer. > Vaccines have been required in other jobs, tests have been required for jobs, and yet no mass protests. Why not? The cases are not comparable because, as far as I know, there is no testing option in the Canadian regulation. Also, as far as I know, there is no exception made to the 14-day quarantine period for those who cannot be vaccinated because of either a negative reaction to a prior vaccine or deeply held religious convictions.