7 ms·

Take it or get fired. That is being forced for all intents and purposes. Shaq said it well: https://twitter.com/ginacarano/status/1489421001918083073 https://t

Take it or get fired. That is being forced for all intents and purposes. Shaq said it well: https://twitter.com/ginacarano/status/1489421001918083073 https://twitter.com/ginacarano/status/1489421001918083073

PierceJoy 5y ago
- _dain_ 5y ago
  It is coercion and I don't know how anyone can say otherwise. How does that boot taste?
  - dang 5y ago
    Please keep personal attacks off this site. We ban accounts that do it and lord knows we've got enough flaming going on here already. Your comment would be fine without that last sentence. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  You are manipulating the word “forced” so it doesn’t sound so bad. Just because it doesn’t use physical force doesn’t mean it isn’t forced.
  - PierceJoy 5y ago
    It isn't forced.
    - throwawaysea 5y ago
      - PierceJoy 5y ago
        It's literally not forced. There are many jobs available that don't require a vaccine.
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      - dang 5y ago
        Please stop taking HN threads further into flamewar hell. A comment like this stands out even in a thread as intense as this one. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: I also had to ask you this just recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29969188 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29969188 - and before that as well. We ban accounts that don't heed these warnings. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN as intended. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30226201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30226201 for a gloss on what is intended.
        gjsman-1000 5y ago
        I apologize for both incidents and will try to maintain respect and provide more thoughtful comments in the future.
      - PierceJoy 5y ago
        > Cool, imagine if I passed a law saying donate 20% of your life savings to Trump or go to jail. Don’t worry, you aren’t forced to, by that logic. But the threat of jail is actually being forced. No on is going to jail for being unvaccinated. Are you equating finding another job to being incarcerated? > Or in a more realistic world from the past, you’d better not employ that German Jew or your business will get forcibly shut down. Don’t worry, you’re not forced to not hire him. Race is a protected class. Vaccination status without documented medical reason is not. Also, no one is forcing these businesses to shut down. They simply can't employ unvaccinated people.
        gjsman-1000 5y ago
        I respectfully maintain my disagreement and will not discuss it further.
        5y ago
- naasking 5y ago
  > Many jobs have had vaccine and testing requirements for decades and nobody lost their mind Yes, "many", not "all". Do you think we're still in "many" territory or are we trending towards "all"? The requirements changing for a job they may have had for decades is also a legitimate reason to be upset. Let's not pretend there aren't legitimate concerns here.
  - PierceJoy 5y ago
    We're not even close to "all" territory. > The requirements changing for a job they may have had for decades is also a legitimate reason to be upset. People are fired all the time because their job requirements changed, or they were made redundant. Where have the mass protests been for that? > Let's not pretend there aren't legitimate concerns here. Some concerns are legitimate, other's are not. But occupying the nation's capitol, and assaulting people who wear masks are not a legitimate avenue to express those concerns.
    - naasking 5y ago
      > We're not even close to "all" territory. I said trending in that direction, I didn't say we were in or close to that territory. The idea behind protests is not just to move out of some conceptual territory, but also to stop movement into such territory if we're headed in that direction. > People are fired all the time because their job requirements changed, or they were made redundant. Where have the mass protests been for that? When has there ever been talk of a society-wide policy which would forcibly unemploy 15% of the population that are otherwise fully qualified to continue to work in their current jobs? When have citizens ever had to carry papers around to enjoy the benefits of full citizenship? Let's not pretend that the scenario we find ourselves in falls well within the boundaries of precedent.
      - PierceJoy 5y ago
        > The idea behind protests is not just to move out of some conceptual territory, but also to stop movement into such territory if we're headed in that direction. No, the reason for these protests is a bunch of grown adults are scared of a safe and effective vaccine in a global pandemic, and are now terrorizing downtown Ottawa. > When have citizens ever had to carry papers around to enjoy the benefits of full citizenship? Let's not pretend that the scenario we find ourselves in falls well within the boundaries of precedent. Agreed. The scale of impact of this pandemic is without precedent. Thus the response is obviously without precedent as well. I don't know why you're surprised at that.
- tastyfreeze 5y ago
  It is called coercion which is a form of force.
  - seemack 5y ago
    Are you also against the other laws that we have governing our behaviour as a collective society? For instance, you are "coerced" into driving your vehicle within a certain measure of sobriety.
    - tastyfreeze 5y ago
      This is a false equivalency. Getting vaccinated does not stop me from getting or spreading SARS-CoV2. At best these vaccines reduce severe symptoms in an individual.
      - seemack 5y ago
        Great point. It's actually more equivalent than I thought. The vaccine reduces the amount of hospitalizations necessary to treat COVID infections which means we don't overrun our hospitals. Much in the same way that the hospitals would be overrun if everyone was driving drunk and sending a high number of people to the hospital via car accidents. Thanks for that!
- bendbro 5y ago
  - dang 5y ago
    Please do not post unsubstantive or flamebait comments here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the guidelines more to heart, we'd be grateful. Note this one: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
  - PierceJoy 5y ago
- aqsalose 5y ago
  I must say, that line about "there is no force, only consequences", it does sound a bit ludicrous, not matter when it used. When other human being A willfully inflict a consequence on other person B because of past actions of person B, I thought such consequence is commonly referred to as a "punishment", especially if A has some sort of authority or official capacity. Like, I live in Finland. Here is an illustrative episode from what I remember from school. In Finnish case, the first world war manifested as a brutal civil war where about 1 % population died. The interwar period was characterized by political instability and sectarian violence, where it was near always people aligned with the "White" anticommunist side (victors of the civil war) doing the violence. People who publicly professed communist or socialist ideas often got roughhoused and in some incidents were killed; many times, their printing presses were burned by right-wing activists. The government turned a blind eye to these actions, but it wasn't something government orchestrated -- the actual activities were genuine "grassroots" effort from a part of populace that found any idea of communist action as totally opposed their mental image of Finnish nation, and certain democratic norms were not running very deep. (During some specific moments, the politicians were often afraid of facing a popular right-wing coup.) And granted, some of the communist action during that time was supported by the Soviet Russia and was publicly agitating for an international revolution. However, what I am trying to say is this: Sure, a galactic alien with all the tact and deep understanding of human behavior that Lt. Commander Data possess could describe the events as "phenomena where communists faced consequences for their freely exercised speech actions because they found out their speech was wildly unpopular with some other people, without government doing censorship", but any sensible human being would recognize that there was political violence with express purpose of limiting the political speech of the left side. If you think these people had right to express their political message, it was repressed, with violence. Now, I write about this episode of Northeast European history exactly because it is a distant analogue about any current situation anywhere in the world. But one can not pretend that if you inflict any kind of cost to other people either because they did something or because you want to change their behavior, the costs you inflict are some impersonal "consequences" which somehow makes it so that any other context of situation does not apply -- for example, your purpose for inflicting the consequences.
- __turbobrew__ 5y ago
- petre 5y ago
  What do you think would happen when truckers get fired and nobody's going to deliver your food to the supermarket or will do it for eight times the amount because they got a jab? This is not health sector or senior home work. It's trucking. It requires minimal interaction with other people.

PierceJoy 5y ago

_dain_ 5y ago
It is coercion and I don't know how anyone can say otherwise. How does that boot taste?
- dang 5y ago
  Please keep personal attacks off this site. We ban accounts that do it and lord knows we've got enough flaming going on here already. Your comment would be fine without that last sentence. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
gjsman-1000 5y ago
You are manipulating the word “forced” so it doesn’t sound so bad. Just because it doesn’t use physical force doesn’t mean it isn’t forced.
- PierceJoy 5y ago
  It isn't forced.
  - throwawaysea 5y ago
    - PierceJoy 5y ago
      It's literally not forced. There are many jobs available that don't require a vaccine.
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    - dang 5y ago
      Please stop taking HN threads further into flamewar hell. A comment like this stands out even in a thread as intense as this one. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: I also had to ask you this just recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29969188 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29969188 - and before that as well. We ban accounts that don't heed these warnings. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN as intended. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30226201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30226201 for a gloss on what is intended.
      - gjsman-1000 5y ago
        I apologize for both incidents and will try to maintain respect and provide more thoughtful comments in the future.
    - PierceJoy 5y ago
      > Cool, imagine if I passed a law saying donate 20% of your life savings to Trump or go to jail. Don’t worry, you aren’t forced to, by that logic. But the threat of jail is actually being forced. No on is going to jail for being unvaccinated. Are you equating finding another job to being incarcerated? > Or in a more realistic world from the past, you’d better not employ that German Jew or your business will get forcibly shut down. Don’t worry, you’re not forced to not hire him. Race is a protected class. Vaccination status without documented medical reason is not. Also, no one is forcing these businesses to shut down. They simply can't employ unvaccinated people.
      - gjsman-1000 5y ago
        I respectfully maintain my disagreement and will not discuss it further.
      - 5y ago
naasking 5y ago
> Many jobs have had vaccine and testing requirements for decades and nobody lost their mind Yes, "many", not "all". Do you think we're still in "many" territory or are we trending towards "all"? The requirements changing for a job they may have had for decades is also a legitimate reason to be upset. Let's not pretend there aren't legitimate concerns here.
- PierceJoy 5y ago
  We're not even close to "all" territory. > The requirements changing for a job they may have had for decades is also a legitimate reason to be upset. People are fired all the time because their job requirements changed, or they were made redundant. Where have the mass protests been for that? > Let's not pretend there aren't legitimate concerns here. Some concerns are legitimate, other's are not. But occupying the nation's capitol, and assaulting people who wear masks are not a legitimate avenue to express those concerns.
  - naasking 5y ago
    > We're not even close to "all" territory. I said trending in that direction, I didn't say we were in or close to that territory. The idea behind protests is not just to move out of some conceptual territory, but also to stop movement into such territory if we're headed in that direction. > People are fired all the time because their job requirements changed, or they were made redundant. Where have the mass protests been for that? When has there ever been talk of a society-wide policy which would forcibly unemploy 15% of the population that are otherwise fully qualified to continue to work in their current jobs? When have citizens ever had to carry papers around to enjoy the benefits of full citizenship? Let's not pretend that the scenario we find ourselves in falls well within the boundaries of precedent.
    - PierceJoy 5y ago
      > The idea behind protests is not just to move out of some conceptual territory, but also to stop movement into such territory if we're headed in that direction. No, the reason for these protests is a bunch of grown adults are scared of a safe and effective vaccine in a global pandemic, and are now terrorizing downtown Ottawa. > When have citizens ever had to carry papers around to enjoy the benefits of full citizenship? Let's not pretend that the scenario we find ourselves in falls well within the boundaries of precedent. Agreed. The scale of impact of this pandemic is without precedent. Thus the response is obviously without precedent as well. I don't know why you're surprised at that.
tastyfreeze 5y ago
It is called coercion which is a form of force.
- seemack 5y ago
  Are you also against the other laws that we have governing our behaviour as a collective society? For instance, you are "coerced" into driving your vehicle within a certain measure of sobriety.
  - tastyfreeze 5y ago
    This is a false equivalency. Getting vaccinated does not stop me from getting or spreading SARS-CoV2. At best these vaccines reduce severe symptoms in an individual.
    - seemack 5y ago
      Great point. It's actually more equivalent than I thought. The vaccine reduces the amount of hospitalizations necessary to treat COVID infections which means we don't overrun our hospitals. Much in the same way that the hospitals would be overrun if everyone was driving drunk and sending a high number of people to the hospital via car accidents. Thanks for that!
bendbro 5y ago
- dang 5y ago
  Please do not post unsubstantive or flamebait comments here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the guidelines more to heart, we'd be grateful. Note this one: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
- PierceJoy 5y ago
aqsalose 5y ago
I must say, that line about "there is no force, only consequences", it does sound a bit ludicrous, not matter when it used. When other human being A willfully inflict a consequence on other person B because of past actions of person B, I thought such consequence is commonly referred to as a "punishment", especially if A has some sort of authority or official capacity. Like, I live in Finland. Here is an illustrative episode from what I remember from school. In Finnish case, the first world war manifested as a brutal civil war where about 1 % population died. The interwar period was characterized by political instability and sectarian violence, where it was near always people aligned with the "White" anticommunist side (victors of the civil war) doing the violence. People who publicly professed communist or socialist ideas often got roughhoused and in some incidents were killed; many times, their printing presses were burned by right-wing activists. The government turned a blind eye to these actions, but it wasn't something government orchestrated -- the actual activities were genuine "grassroots" effort from a part of populace that found any idea of communist action as totally opposed their mental image of Finnish nation, and certain democratic norms were not running very deep. (During some specific moments, the politicians were often afraid of facing a popular right-wing coup.) And granted, some of the communist action during that time was supported by the Soviet Russia and was publicly agitating for an international revolution. However, what I am trying to say is this: Sure, a galactic alien with all the tact and deep understanding of human behavior that Lt. Commander Data possess could describe the events as "phenomena where communists faced consequences for their freely exercised speech actions because they found out their speech was wildly unpopular with some other people, without government doing censorship", but any sensible human being would recognize that there was political violence with express purpose of limiting the political speech of the left side. If you think these people had right to express their political message, it was repressed, with violence. Now, I write about this episode of Northeast European history exactly because it is a distant analogue about any current situation anywhere in the world. But one can not pretend that if you inflict any kind of cost to other people either because they did something or because you want to change their behavior, the costs you inflict are some impersonal "consequences" which somehow makes it so that any other context of situation does not apply -- for example, your purpose for inflicting the consequences.
__turbobrew__ 5y ago
petre 5y ago
What do you think would happen when truckers get fired and nobody's going to deliver your food to the supermarket or will do it for eight times the amount because they got a jab? This is not health sector or senior home work. It's trucking. It requires minimal interaction with other people.