4 ms·

You may get sent to collections and thats a whole pile of misfortune.

dheera 5y ago
Most online services just terminate your service after a couple warnings and don't bother with collections. In any case just set it as your policy that you don't talk to collectors, you only engage with businesses directly. Send Adobe a written notice of termination of the agreement, stop payments, and I believe that's all you need to do, but IANAL.
- kevincox 5y ago
  IANAL but if you agreed to a fixed term contract you can't just inform the other party that you are leaving early. You need to use an exit clause within the contract or somehow invalidate it. (For example by saying that you didn't knowingly enter into a 1 year contract.)
  - gaius_baltar 5y ago
    > IANAL but if you agreed to a fixed term contract you can't just inform the other party that you are leaving early. Also IANAL, but he whole point is that the user is still in the 14 days "free trial, just cancel", and Adobe is refusing to honor the "cancel" part, right? This approach can be handy, specially in countries where there is a way to send legally valid electronic notification letters.
    - phgn 5y ago
      No, during the first 14 days you can actually cancel for free. This is talking about months later when you discover the "annual commitment" part for the first time. It's a perfectly legal contract, just deceptive.
      - account42 5y ago
        > It's a perfectly legal contract Is it? You can't actually just write whatever you want in the fine print and then claim that that is what was agreed to.
  - obmelvin 5y ago
    > (For example by saying that you didn't knowingly enter into a 1 year contract.) I'm also not a lawyer, but I don't think its ever a reasonable defense to say that you didn't know the terms of the contract if you've signed it (or agreed to the terms online - which I'm sure is provable by Adobe)?
    - kevincox 5y ago
      I'm pretty sure it is. I believe the technical term is "Misrepresentation". I don't think it would be an easy fight but it seems that you could try to make an argument that they represented the contract as monthly. There are also examples of ToS being declared invalid because no reasonable person read them, this sounds similar where no one is actually reading the fine print. While this case may be hard I'm pretty sure it isn't "never". For example if you are buying a subscription to a software suite and they sneak into the contract "You also give us your house" that isn't going to fly, even if you signed it.
      - obmelvin 5y ago
        I get your point - and also that 'never' is not the right word - but I don't think the defense is that you didn't read the contract. There are plenty of cases where people get screwed over for not reading a contract. E.g. if ToS said I needed to give up my first born to Adobe, the judge isn't going to side with me because I didn't read the ToS. They will side with me because the clause isn't valid.
        g-clef 5y ago
        To build on that, allow me to offer a real-world example: a General Contractor I worked with set up as his standard contract as a triplicate form, so you'd sign once and you'd keep one of the triplicate copies as your copy of the contract. The trick was that the back of the triplicate form was where he put the penalties for breaking the contract, but the signature section was on the front, so there was no indication that there were more terms on the back. One of his customers got fed up with his misbehavior, and he lost the ensuing court case because the contract was deemed to be misleading (hiding more clauses after the signature). I'm not sure if this would fall into the same boat, but if the dark patterns get misleading enough, there is a real-world risk that the contract would fall into the same situation: misleading enough that the hidden portions of the contract can't be applied.
  - squeaky-clean 5y ago
    IANAL but I've successfully done exactly this. Told them I wouldn't be paying any longer and denying the charges on my card. Support sent me a grumpy email that I violated my contract and that's it. According to them I won't be able to resubscribe with that email. Oh no! Anyways...
- distances 5y ago
  > In any case just set it as your policy that you don't talk to collectors, you only engage with businesses directly. Are collectors so toothless over there? Here a valid collection is an easy win in courts if it's not paid, and then it can be garnished from wages, pension, other income, or your property. Collections absolutely can not be ignored here.
  - dheera 5y ago
    Um, if a business wants to charge me and I disagree with the charge, they need to duke it out with me directly. Over e-mail, which is my official means of contact. Or in court, if it comes to that. I'm not going to engage a collector. They aren't part of the 2-party agreement, they have no rights to any information about me, and I'm not going to give more of my personal information to some 3rd party idiot just because they asked for it. Pro tip: Never give private businesses your real address or phone number. Make sure they only have your e-mail address. They aren't the police, and don't need to know where you live. If there is a dispute they must engage with you directly by e-mail. If a business needs your credit card billing address, change the street address, as long as the city and zipcode are correct it will usually work.
    - distances 5y ago
      Sure, I'm not going to tell you otherwise. Just that "ignore debt collectors" might be very bad advice with real-world consequences following people for years. Around here a mark in your negative credit report from courts means you're last in line for rental apartments, can't get a new mobile subscription, and a plethora of other nuisances.
      - dheera 5y ago
        Couldn't you just freeze all your credit reports and never give Adobe your real name, address, phone number, and they wouldn't be able to affect your credit. I see Adobe as equivalent to a grocery store, they're just a business and don't have a legal right to any personal information, I could totally manifest to them as an avatar and pay for services with an anonymous Visa gift card.
pkulak 5y ago
If all Adobe has is a throwaway email and fake address, what exactly are they gonna do?
- xeromal 5y ago
  They have your CC/Debit card info on file.
  - slovette 5y ago
    Privacy.com
    - nopenopenopeno 5y ago
      Privacy numbers don’t work for Adobe trials. As it happens, I attempted that earlier this evening.
      - pkulak 5y ago
        As a last resort I generate a temp number with my actual credit card.
squeaky-clean 5y ago
I can confirm from experience they don't.
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
I haven't worked at Adobe, but I have worked at other places with somewhat similar subscription policies, and I highly, highly doubt they would send it to collections: 1. There is an extremely low chance they would collect anything anyway, so it's not worth it to them. 2. If someone actually challenged their collection, there is a good chance, of it went that far, that the judicial system would find this type of agreement invalid given the dark patterns involved. Basically, what Adobe and other companies are trying to do with these onerous auto-renewal and ridiculous early termination fees is just to make more money from people (a) forgetting to term their subscriptions and (b) not wanting to go through the hassle of fighting the early termination fee.

Most online services just terminate your service after a couple warnings and don't bother with collections. In any case just set it as your policy that you don't talk to collectors, you only engage with businesses directly. Send Adobe a written notice of termination of the agreement, stop payments, and I believe that's all you need to do, but IANAL.

kevincox 5y ago
IANAL but if you agreed to a fixed term contract you can't just inform the other party that you are leaving early. You need to use an exit clause within the contract or somehow invalidate it. (For example by saying that you didn't knowingly enter into a 1 year contract.)
- gaius_baltar 5y ago
  > IANAL but if you agreed to a fixed term contract you can't just inform the other party that you are leaving early. Also IANAL, but he whole point is that the user is still in the 14 days "free trial, just cancel", and Adobe is refusing to honor the "cancel" part, right? This approach can be handy, specially in countries where there is a way to send legally valid electronic notification letters.
  - phgn 5y ago
    No, during the first 14 days you can actually cancel for free. This is talking about months later when you discover the "annual commitment" part for the first time. It's a perfectly legal contract, just deceptive.
    - account42 5y ago
      > It's a perfectly legal contract Is it? You can't actually just write whatever you want in the fine print and then claim that that is what was agreed to.
- obmelvin 5y ago
  > (For example by saying that you didn't knowingly enter into a 1 year contract.) I'm also not a lawyer, but I don't think its ever a reasonable defense to say that you didn't know the terms of the contract if you've signed it (or agreed to the terms online - which I'm sure is provable by Adobe)?
  - kevincox 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure it is. I believe the technical term is "Misrepresentation". I don't think it would be an easy fight but it seems that you could try to make an argument that they represented the contract as monthly. There are also examples of ToS being declared invalid because no reasonable person read them, this sounds similar where no one is actually reading the fine print. While this case may be hard I'm pretty sure it isn't "never". For example if you are buying a subscription to a software suite and they sneak into the contract "You also give us your house" that isn't going to fly, even if you signed it.
    - obmelvin 5y ago
      I get your point - and also that 'never' is not the right word - but I don't think the defense is that you didn't read the contract. There are plenty of cases where people get screwed over for not reading a contract. E.g. if ToS said I needed to give up my first born to Adobe, the judge isn't going to side with me because I didn't read the ToS. They will side with me because the clause isn't valid.
      - g-clef 5y ago
        To build on that, allow me to offer a real-world example: a General Contractor I worked with set up as his standard contract as a triplicate form, so you'd sign once and you'd keep one of the triplicate copies as your copy of the contract. The trick was that the back of the triplicate form was where he put the penalties for breaking the contract, but the signature section was on the front, so there was no indication that there were more terms on the back. One of his customers got fed up with his misbehavior, and he lost the ensuing court case because the contract was deemed to be misleading (hiding more clauses after the signature). I'm not sure if this would fall into the same boat, but if the dark patterns get misleading enough, there is a real-world risk that the contract would fall into the same situation: misleading enough that the hidden portions of the contract can't be applied.
- squeaky-clean 5y ago
  IANAL but I've successfully done exactly this. Told them I wouldn't be paying any longer and denying the charges on my card. Support sent me a grumpy email that I violated my contract and that's it. According to them I won't be able to resubscribe with that email. Oh no! Anyways...
distances 5y ago
> In any case just set it as your policy that you don't talk to collectors, you only engage with businesses directly. Are collectors so toothless over there? Here a valid collection is an easy win in courts if it's not paid, and then it can be garnished from wages, pension, other income, or your property. Collections absolutely can not be ignored here.
- dheera 5y ago
  Um, if a business wants to charge me and I disagree with the charge, they need to duke it out with me directly. Over e-mail, which is my official means of contact. Or in court, if it comes to that. I'm not going to engage a collector. They aren't part of the 2-party agreement, they have no rights to any information about me, and I'm not going to give more of my personal information to some 3rd party idiot just because they asked for it. Pro tip: Never give private businesses your real address or phone number. Make sure they only have your e-mail address. They aren't the police, and don't need to know where you live. If there is a dispute they must engage with you directly by e-mail. If a business needs your credit card billing address, change the street address, as long as the city and zipcode are correct it will usually work.
  - distances 5y ago
    Sure, I'm not going to tell you otherwise. Just that "ignore debt collectors" might be very bad advice with real-world consequences following people for years. Around here a mark in your negative credit report from courts means you're last in line for rental apartments, can't get a new mobile subscription, and a plethora of other nuisances.
    - dheera 5y ago
      Couldn't you just freeze all your credit reports and never give Adobe your real name, address, phone number, and they wouldn't be able to affect your credit. I see Adobe as equivalent to a grocery store, they're just a business and don't have a legal right to any personal information, I could totally manifest to them as an avatar and pay for services with an anonymous Visa gift card.

pkulak 5y ago

If all Adobe has is a throwaway email and fake address, what exactly are they gonna do?

xeromal 5y ago
They have your CC/Debit card info on file.
- slovette 5y ago
  Privacy.com
  - nopenopenopeno 5y ago
    Privacy numbers don’t work for Adobe trials. As it happens, I attempted that earlier this evening.
    - pkulak 5y ago
      As a last resort I generate a temp number with my actual credit card.

squeaky-clean 5y ago

I can confirm from experience they don't.

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

I haven't worked at Adobe, but I have worked at other places with somewhat similar subscription policies, and I highly, highly doubt they would send it to collections: 1. There is an extremely low chance they would collect anything anyway, so it's not worth it to them. 2. If someone actually challenged their collection, there is a good chance, of it went that far, that the judicial system would find this type of agreement invalid given the dark patterns involved. Basically, what Adobe and other companies are trying to do with these onerous auto-renewal and ridiculous early termination fees is just to make more money from people (a) forgetting to term their subscriptions and (b) not wanting to go through the hassle of fighting the early termination fee.