7 ms·

I Used Linux-Based PinePhone Daily for a Year. Here’s What I Learned

81 points by kk6mrp 5y ago

foxyv 5y ago
> Even simple things, like opening Firefox, can take almost 20 seconds, no doubt thanks to its measly 4 cores. Why do I need an 8-Core processor to open Firefox? What is it doing with all that CPU?!?!
bonyt 5y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20220205183707/https://news.itsfoss.com/pinephone-review/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220205183707/https://news.itsf...
- jmakov 5y ago
  Sorry. This snapshot cannot be displayed due to an internal error.
  - egberts1 5y ago
    That link works for me on my Firefox iOS iPhone.
pjmlp 5y ago
The bar for all these attempts is to at least be as good as the Nokia N900, which still doesn't seem to be happening. We don't need endless combinations of "Desktop Linux" on the phone.
- tpxl 5y ago
  The bar is Nokia 3510. I want reliable calls and SMSs and a UI that doesn't take 10 seconds to open the call app. Sadly what I got with the pinephone was 15 different DEs that are laggy as hell and last I checked receiving calls/texts still wasn't bulletproof.
  - rubatuga 5y ago
    The power and the downfall of open source software.
- MayeulC 5y ago
  Try to use a Nokia N900 today, and check if that's really the bar (I have one in my drawer). I think the bar is higher, and the experience is already better than that on a few mobile devices. If talking about the UI, Plasma mobile is a bit experimental, but gets stuff done with bells and whistles, phosh is a bit barebones but better performant. If you want the Maemo UI, try Nemo mobile. When installing postmarketos on a device, you get quite a few to pick from. If you talk about performance, there are plenty of devices to pick with better performance than the Pinephone (including the Pinephone Pro soon, and the Librem 5). It was meant as a cheap dev platform, and it has largely succeeded at that. Now, telephony support is where it hurts. Supporting modems can get quite complex, so progress is slow. The Pinephone was deliberately engineered as to be doable. Part of the Linux appeal is choice. Choose what you don't need, but we'll likely end up with different needs. One way to bridge the gap is to get Android apps running. We're getting there thanks to waydroid.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    It is definitely the bar, because many of the Linux based phone attempts aren't even able to match it.
    - seba_dos1 5y ago
      I think the only use cases where my Librem 5 doesn't yet reach my Nokia N900 (not counting obvious form factor and spec differences) are related to the cameras.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        And the development experience versus Nokia's SDK.
        seba_dos1 5y ago
        I'd say the development experience on the Librem 5 is much better than fiddling with Scratchbox, at least for me. I have even developed things in an IDE (in fact, it was Qt Creator ;)) running right on the phone, with external screen and keyboard attached; and cross-compiling is pretty easy too. Scratchbox was a massive PITA if you needed something outside of the default toolchain.
- john61 5y ago
  I am still surprised how far ahead the N900 was. It is still my daily driver because there is simply no comparable alternative.
  - pigeons 5y ago
    I don't get coverage on the bands it supports in areas I frequent.
- pengaru 5y ago
  Why isn't the N9/Harmattan where the bar is?
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    I guess it is even further away.
egberts1 5y ago
hug-0-death’d
habibur 5y ago
Rather, what I have done : Buy an android phone. A good one. Whichever you like. Install F-droid from website. Install Termux from F-droid. You get a full Debian linux running inside your phone as an app. No need to even root your phone. You can now : Access, parse your address book, sms, call records everything from command line. Access sensors on your phone from command line -- like GPS, compass or camera. Access SD card and other files. rsync, scp, wget and others. SSH into your server. Edit some Java files, compile and install it as an app from your phone. Install other packages that you need using apt-get or pkg. Like python, ruby, php, gcc. And many more.
- mindslight 5y ago
  You shouldn't SSH into your server, because the terrible mobile security model means you're vulnerable to both Google and the cell network by doing so. A modern phone should be one of your least trusted devices. The problem with the mobile ecosystem isn't so much what you can run on your phone, but rather what you can't stop running on your phone. And that perfectly good devices are relegated to the trash bin due to the upgrade treadmill. A Linux-first phone stands a chance at fixing these issues, whereas starting with an OS developed by a surveillance company does not.
  - gumby 5y ago
    You suggest a MITM attack against ssh by the carrier? Seems unlikely to me. Not sure about the threat by Google if you’re using f-droid. Though there is always dmr’s compiler attack I’m not sure ssh would be the right vector. A keyboard attack might be more useful.
    - mindslight 5y ago
      Not MITM, but rather the application processor trusting the baseband processor, which is running who-knows-what network-facing code. Qualcomm claims to have recently implemented memory separation, but without actual public documentation and scrutiny of internals why would one believe them? Installing F-droid does not remove Google's presence in other software. On a vanilla Android phone, that is all of the Google (Play) services and who knows what centralized-expedient hacks have been put into the OS itself.
mindslight 5y ago
As a former embedded developer, I'm surprised nobody has come up with a basic purpose-built UI that skips all of the bloat (a phone doesn't need a WM), and just reliably performs basic functionality like voice calls and textual messages. Are the performance problems further down the stack (eg graphics driver), or are developers just too wed to the maladapted idea of running full web browsers on a phone, or what? With the 4G partial shutdown I'd be in the market for a Pinephone but I just don't have time to do extra tinkering right now. I'll probably just limp along with my current pocket device and attempt to go VOIP-only.
- seba_dos1 5y ago
  Everyone keeps talking about "building a basic purpose-built UI" for many many years now, but that's pretty much a weekend project that could be easily built on top of already existing abstractions that somehow doesn't seem to gain dev traction. Zhone and Paroli already existed in the past, but most people gravitated towards more capable options. It's like people actually want their smartphones to be somewhat smart. Or maybe there are as many sets of things considered "basic" as there are people. Pick your explanation.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Easy, the Linux phone is going to happen on the same day as the Linux Desktop finally arrives. Instead of collaborating on a single development and consumer experience, each of these efforts go out doing their own thing. Meanwhile companies like Nokia[0] and Google come and assert this is how it is going to be, not happy move on. The large consumer market, and App developers, don't care that many Linux syscalls aren't considered public APIs and communities like Termux refuse to acknowledge that. So every couple of years these attempts keep being rebooted, all the way back to OpenMoko. [0] - We all know why Nokia efforts bombed, and now their brand is also tied to Android phones
- eternityforest 5y ago
  I sure wouldn't pay money for something that can't run a browser. Such a device would probably not be any better than a $20 flip phone from eBay. They still make them.
james-redwood 5y ago
The PinePhone in its current iteration is unfortunately unusable. It's a shame because while I do wholeheartedly believe in the mission of the project it's simply just not quite there yet. Nevertheless, a much better alternative in the meantime is to do what Edward Snowden did: https://twitter.com/snowden/status/1175430722733129729?lang=en https://twitter.com/snowden/status/1175430722733129729?lang=....
- imiric 5y ago
  > a much better alternative in the meantime is to do what Edward Snowden did He also wouldn't use WiFi or email, so his advice is far from practical for most users. While the base PinePhone is admittedly underpowered, it's far from unusable. The Pro seems like a considerable step up that would solve most of the issues with the base model. The software is still not there yet, but it will also improve. I'm actually pleasantly surprised at how usable a true Linux phone is in 2022.
MichaelRazum 5y ago
For me this would be the killer application for a phone. Lets say iphone 13 like hardware. Linux based system. Where you could 1. Use it as phone 2. Plug it to a dock and use it as normal linux desktop pc Just wondering why it is still years out of reach...
- juanci_to 5y ago
  Samsung DeX? https://nexdock.com/samsung-dex-laptop/ https://nexdock.com/samsung-dex-laptop/
  - senectus1 5y ago
    and they just added VMWare Horizons as well https://blogs.vmware.com/euc/2022/01/horizon-samsung-dex-enables-galaxy-devices-secondary-display.html https://blogs.vmware.com/euc/2022/01/horizon-samsung-dex-ena...
  - MichaelRazum 5y ago
    I mean rather be able to plug in a monitor to the phone. Then use the phone as a normal linux desktop pc with mouse and keyboard over Bluetooth.
rycomb 5y ago
[ It’s Performance Is Like Molasses ] The "it's vs its" fight's dilation is overdue: I knew that it was going to become a grammar mistake spreading throughout, reaching almost every pseudo-professional writer... I guessed that anybody criticizing the trend towards the unnecessary apostrophe would be: either considered a grammar nazi; or their own writing being extraordinarily examined for mistakes (as a punishment for their criticism). As a non-native speaker, my language credentials may be slim, but I can't really stand the -quite widespread- extra apostrophe when it's a possessive "its". The reversal, though, doesnt bother me that much. I guess that it's about character conservation.
- maximus-decimus 5y ago
  People just don't know what a noun, verb or possessive adjective are. For some reason school never tries to teach it to you after you're 10 and people go on learning literature without knowing the role of different words.
linmob 5y ago
One thing this article fails to mention is that in practice, you can mix and match and have e.g. Plasma Mobile apps on Phosh. Sadly, most distributions don’t do a good job at enabling this by default (as in preinstalling the qt5-wayland package (which usually is not in the dependency list) or setting the proper environment variables, so that people don’t have to figure these out on their own. Also, video recording is (albeit obviously somewhat poorly and not up to todays standards) is possible, it‘s just that Megapixels, the de-facto default camera app, doesn’t have the feature. If you wonder about Linux Phones, I try to weekly collect what has happened in the previous week on my blog [0]. If you‘re wondering about apps, check out this app list [1]. [0] https://linmob.net https://linmob.net [1] https://LinuxPhoneApps.org https://LinuxPhoneApps.org
boot_loop 5y ago
I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone mention the PinePhone Pro (became available this year) still not consumer ready but Soo much faster than pinephone (one of the main and valid complaints). It honestly feels like close to being a daily driver with the only thing missing being the battery life. (Caveat: don't care about camera and honestly don't know what that state that is in). Everything (mainly software) is still being worked on but I was surprised just how much of a difference the new hardware made

81 points by kk6mrp 5y ago

> Even simple things, like opening Firefox, can take almost 20 seconds, no doubt thanks to its measly 4 cores. Why do I need an 8-Core processor to open Firefox? What is it doing with all that CPU?!?!

bonyt 5y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20220205183707/https://news.itsfoss.com/pinephone-review/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220205183707/https://news.itsf...

jmakov 5y ago
Sorry. This snapshot cannot be displayed due to an internal error.
- egberts1 5y ago
  That link works for me on my Firefox iOS iPhone.

pjmlp 5y ago

The bar for all these attempts is to at least be as good as the Nokia N900, which still doesn't seem to be happening. We don't need endless combinations of "Desktop Linux" on the phone.

tpxl 5y ago
The bar is Nokia 3510. I want reliable calls and SMSs and a UI that doesn't take 10 seconds to open the call app. Sadly what I got with the pinephone was 15 different DEs that are laggy as hell and last I checked receiving calls/texts still wasn't bulletproof.
- rubatuga 5y ago
  The power and the downfall of open source software.
MayeulC 5y ago
Try to use a Nokia N900 today, and check if that's really the bar (I have one in my drawer). I think the bar is higher, and the experience is already better than that on a few mobile devices. If talking about the UI, Plasma mobile is a bit experimental, but gets stuff done with bells and whistles, phosh is a bit barebones but better performant. If you want the Maemo UI, try Nemo mobile. When installing postmarketos on a device, you get quite a few to pick from. If you talk about performance, there are plenty of devices to pick with better performance than the Pinephone (including the Pinephone Pro soon, and the Librem 5). It was meant as a cheap dev platform, and it has largely succeeded at that. Now, telephony support is where it hurts. Supporting modems can get quite complex, so progress is slow. The Pinephone was deliberately engineered as to be doable. Part of the Linux appeal is choice. Choose what you don't need, but we'll likely end up with different needs. One way to bridge the gap is to get Android apps running. We're getting there thanks to waydroid.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  It is definitely the bar, because many of the Linux based phone attempts aren't even able to match it.
  - seba_dos1 5y ago
    I think the only use cases where my Librem 5 doesn't yet reach my Nokia N900 (not counting obvious form factor and spec differences) are related to the cameras.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      And the development experience versus Nokia's SDK.
      - seba_dos1 5y ago
        I'd say the development experience on the Librem 5 is much better than fiddling with Scratchbox, at least for me. I have even developed things in an IDE (in fact, it was Qt Creator ;)) running right on the phone, with external screen and keyboard attached; and cross-compiling is pretty easy too. Scratchbox was a massive PITA if you needed something outside of the default toolchain.
john61 5y ago
I am still surprised how far ahead the N900 was. It is still my daily driver because there is simply no comparable alternative.
- pigeons 5y ago
  I don't get coverage on the bands it supports in areas I frequent.
pengaru 5y ago
Why isn't the N9/Harmattan where the bar is?
- pjmlp 5y ago
  I guess it is even further away.

egberts1 5y ago

hug-0-death’d

habibur 5y ago

Rather, what I have done : Buy an android phone. A good one. Whichever you like. Install F-droid from website. Install Termux from F-droid. You get a full Debian linux running inside your phone as an app. No need to even root your phone. You can now : Access, parse your address book, sms, call records everything from command line. Access sensors on your phone from command line -- like GPS, compass or camera. Access SD card and other files. rsync, scp, wget and others. SSH into your server. Edit some Java files, compile and install it as an app from your phone. Install other packages that you need using apt-get or pkg. Like python, ruby, php, gcc. And many more.

mindslight 5y ago
You shouldn't SSH into your server, because the terrible mobile security model means you're vulnerable to both Google and the cell network by doing so. A modern phone should be one of your least trusted devices. The problem with the mobile ecosystem isn't so much what you can run on your phone, but rather what you can't stop running on your phone. And that perfectly good devices are relegated to the trash bin due to the upgrade treadmill. A Linux-first phone stands a chance at fixing these issues, whereas starting with an OS developed by a surveillance company does not.
- gumby 5y ago
  You suggest a MITM attack against ssh by the carrier? Seems unlikely to me. Not sure about the threat by Google if you’re using f-droid. Though there is always dmr’s compiler attack I’m not sure ssh would be the right vector. A keyboard attack might be more useful.
  - mindslight 5y ago
    Not MITM, but rather the application processor trusting the baseband processor, which is running who-knows-what network-facing code. Qualcomm claims to have recently implemented memory separation, but without actual public documentation and scrutiny of internals why would one believe them? Installing F-droid does not remove Google's presence in other software. On a vanilla Android phone, that is all of the Google (Play) services and who knows what centralized-expedient hacks have been put into the OS itself.

mindslight 5y ago

As a former embedded developer, I'm surprised nobody has come up with a basic purpose-built UI that skips all of the bloat (a phone doesn't need a WM), and just reliably performs basic functionality like voice calls and textual messages. Are the performance problems further down the stack (eg graphics driver), or are developers just too wed to the maladapted idea of running full web browsers on a phone, or what? With the 4G partial shutdown I'd be in the market for a Pinephone but I just don't have time to do extra tinkering right now. I'll probably just limp along with my current pocket device and attempt to go VOIP-only.

seba_dos1 5y ago
Everyone keeps talking about "building a basic purpose-built UI" for many many years now, but that's pretty much a weekend project that could be easily built on top of already existing abstractions that somehow doesn't seem to gain dev traction. Zhone and Paroli already existed in the past, but most people gravitated towards more capable options. It's like people actually want their smartphones to be somewhat smart. Or maybe there are as many sets of things considered "basic" as there are people. Pick your explanation.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Easy, the Linux phone is going to happen on the same day as the Linux Desktop finally arrives. Instead of collaborating on a single development and consumer experience, each of these efforts go out doing their own thing. Meanwhile companies like Nokia[0] and Google come and assert this is how it is going to be, not happy move on. The large consumer market, and App developers, don't care that many Linux syscalls aren't considered public APIs and communities like Termux refuse to acknowledge that. So every couple of years these attempts keep being rebooted, all the way back to OpenMoko. [0] - We all know why Nokia efforts bombed, and now their brand is also tied to Android phones
eternityforest 5y ago
I sure wouldn't pay money for something that can't run a browser. Such a device would probably not be any better than a $20 flip phone from eBay. They still make them.

james-redwood 5y ago

The PinePhone in its current iteration is unfortunately unusable. It's a shame because while I do wholeheartedly believe in the mission of the project it's simply just not quite there yet. Nevertheless, a much better alternative in the meantime is to do what Edward Snowden did: https://twitter.com/snowden/status/1175430722733129729?lang=en https://twitter.com/snowden/status/1175430722733129729?lang=....

imiric 5y ago
> a much better alternative in the meantime is to do what Edward Snowden did He also wouldn't use WiFi or email, so his advice is far from practical for most users. While the base PinePhone is admittedly underpowered, it's far from unusable. The Pro seems like a considerable step up that would solve most of the issues with the base model. The software is still not there yet, but it will also improve. I'm actually pleasantly surprised at how usable a true Linux phone is in 2022.

MichaelRazum 5y ago

For me this would be the killer application for a phone. Lets say iphone 13 like hardware. Linux based system. Where you could 1. Use it as phone 2. Plug it to a dock and use it as normal linux desktop pc Just wondering why it is still years out of reach...

juanci_to 5y ago
Samsung DeX? https://nexdock.com/samsung-dex-laptop/ https://nexdock.com/samsung-dex-laptop/
- senectus1 5y ago
  and they just added VMWare Horizons as well https://blogs.vmware.com/euc/2022/01/horizon-samsung-dex-enables-galaxy-devices-secondary-display.html https://blogs.vmware.com/euc/2022/01/horizon-samsung-dex-ena...
- MichaelRazum 5y ago
  I mean rather be able to plug in a monitor to the phone. Then use the phone as a normal linux desktop pc with mouse and keyboard over Bluetooth.

rycomb 5y ago

[ It’s Performance Is Like Molasses ] The "it's vs its" fight's dilation is overdue: I knew that it was going to become a grammar mistake spreading throughout, reaching almost every pseudo-professional writer... I guessed that anybody criticizing the trend towards the unnecessary apostrophe would be: either considered a grammar nazi; or their own writing being extraordinarily examined for mistakes (as a punishment for their criticism). As a non-native speaker, my language credentials may be slim, but I can't really stand the -quite widespread- extra apostrophe when it's a possessive "its". The reversal, though, doesnt bother me that much. I guess that it's about character conservation.

maximus-decimus 5y ago
People just don't know what a noun, verb or possessive adjective are. For some reason school never tries to teach it to you after you're 10 and people go on learning literature without knowing the role of different words.

linmob 5y ago

One thing this article fails to mention is that in practice, you can mix and match and have e.g. Plasma Mobile apps on Phosh. Sadly, most distributions don’t do a good job at enabling this by default (as in preinstalling the qt5-wayland package (which usually is not in the dependency list) or setting the proper environment variables, so that people don’t have to figure these out on their own. Also, video recording is (albeit obviously somewhat poorly and not up to todays standards) is possible, it‘s just that Megapixels, the de-facto default camera app, doesn’t have the feature. If you wonder about Linux Phones, I try to weekly collect what has happened in the previous week on my blog [0]. If you‘re wondering about apps, check out this app list [1]. [0] https://linmob.net https://linmob.net [1] https://LinuxPhoneApps.org https://LinuxPhoneApps.org

boot_loop 5y ago

I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone mention the PinePhone Pro (became available this year) still not consumer ready but Soo much faster than pinephone (one of the main and valid complaints). It honestly feels like close to being a daily driver with the only thing missing being the battery life. (Caveat: don't care about camera and honestly don't know what that state that is in). Everything (mainly software) is still being worked on but I was surprised just how much of a difference the new hardware made