6 ms·

You are 100% right. We developers need to wise up before it's too late. I don't see doctors advocating to lower the barriers of entry.

missedthecue 5y ago
I have a moral problem with trying to keep people out of a better life just to fatten my own income. If you want to be smarter and better and more skilled than the competition, that's great, but trying to keep supply low to rent-seek just seems insatiably greedy to me.
- nobodyandproud 5y ago
  The next time we hear about a security breach, who takes responsibility? Why are we allowing immature engineers and product managers to drive decisions that impact millions if not billions?
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    The same people who take responsibility now? The topic on hand isn't whether we should encourage untrained 12 year olds to secure our technology. It's whether trained STEM educated professionals should. Some here don't want more STEM professionals because it would increase supply and reduce the equilibrium price (wages).
    - nobodyandproud 5y ago
      > The same people who take responsibility now? That’s not good enough. That’s why making software a trade is what some engineers have been pushing for. > Some here don't want more STEM professionals because it would increase supply and reduce the equilibrium price (wages). And some don’t want to see an influx of low-quality engineers, because these decisions have major negative consequences. The OP mentioned the push for more STEM workers, but the push for more STEM workers comes doesn’t equate to more CS degrees or STEM degreed workers. It’s also about bootcamps and a broad questioning of why a college degree is needed at all.
- dizzystar 5y ago
  I was in construction in my 20s. I earned $X when I was learning. A few years later, I was working independent and earning $Y. It ended up that $Y was lower than $X. This is akin to earning less as a senior dev than you did as a junior dev, except you'd also have to buy your own chair, desk, computer, and software license to work as a sr dev. The problem was multifold, and I think the crux of the situation. The people who entered the field didn't respect the field, and only aimed to undercut the next guy, causing wages to plummet in the span of 5 years. Software doesn't need that much protection yet, but that slide happens way faster than you think it will. It's not about keeping people out; it's about educating those who come in to respect the industry they are entering. Many people are actively preventing people from learning about the proper value of their work.
  - ericd 5y ago
    I see no problem with people competing for work by lowering their bid? Sounds like you’re encouraging cartel-like behavior (which is, for example, why a pit of real estate agents still get paid 5-6% in a transaction despite clearly not being worth that, on average).
- b20000 5y ago
  the computer science field is under no obligation to fix all the hiring and career problems in existence, just like law or medicine is not under that obligation.
  - ushakov 5y ago
    that's why we need unions!
    - b20000 5y ago
      why is this voted down?
      - logicalmonster 5y ago
        I neither upvoted or downvoted that comment, but this isn't Reddit. Low-effort opinion posts like that aren't the type of thing that people generally want to see here. As far as unions go, I always support the right of anybody to voluntarily organize, but unions are IMO a horrible fit for programming. I hate how this sounds, but programmers have a creative job that's not relatively fungible like say a house painter who does a relatively standardized task. The best painter in the world is physically capable of what, painting about 2 or 3 times more square feet per hour than an average painter? I don't know exactly, but I doubt that the best painter in the world is say 100x more effective than an average one. Programmers vary wildly in the value they produce. Good programmers who want to unionize are going to plant themselves near the lower tier of compensation when they easily provide 10x or 100x of the value that a less skilled programmer brings.
        b20000 5y ago
        computer scientists are not programmers. programming is a task that might be done as part of what a computer scientist does. by organizing, further commodization of this very challenging and relatively modestly compensated profession can be prevented.
- logicalmonster 5y ago
  I'm not sure I follow your opinion here. In what way did anybody advocate preventing competition?
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    "We developers need to wise up before it's too late. I don't see doctors advocating to lower the barriers of entry." How exactly did you interpret this?
throwawaynay 5y ago
except we are not doctors? the average web dev(aka most devs) is closer to a plumber or an electrician than a doctor maybe 10% of devs have actually complicated jobs, the rest is just crud BS we have access to good jobs and good salary because the educational system is crap, not because SWE is some kind of elite field unreachable to most people it's outrageous that learning about software development is not an option starting from middle school, at this point it's more important than like half of what you learn in school
- amusedcyclist 5y ago
  Please most medicine isn't that complex either. Only a small minority of doctors really do anything the average person cannot do. Its really just that they've set up barriers to protect themselves. The really complex stuff in any field generally involves open ended research-y work and the reality is that that research work has fairly low demand. Though to clarify, I don't think we should be setting up more barriers to software development, I think we should be reducing barriers to all fields. I also do agree we should be teaching basic coding to all kids, it would compliment math classes well. I also don't think basic webdev roles will pay this much in 10 years when the average person knows how to code.
  - headmelted 5y ago
    Facts. Your GP isn’t a genius, and they’re more often than not just reading the solution from webmd the same way you might look it up on stackoverflow. I know this because my GP flat out told me this is the case. It’s certainly a job that requires a lot of skill, knowledge and experience so as not to do harm, but that’s true of software engineering too.
    - rdtwo 5y ago
      Your gp could probably be replaced with a chat bot
  - logicalmonster 5y ago
    > when the average person knows how to code Some exposure to some kind of programming is probably a good thing, but I think this it is very unlikely for the average person to learn to code without either thousands of years of evolution, genetic engineering of humanity, or changing the definition of coding. The average person cannot build a consistent mental model of complex abstract concepts. Schools have done lots of tests to prospective CS students trying to see how they'd be as programmers. The point isn't to see if they got the right answer, the point was to see if they could merely come up with a consistent mental model of what abstract symbols mean, and many people can't do that.
rdtwo 5y ago
Yeah and look at where that got them in terms of quality of life and work. Doctors are caught in an elaborate hazing ritual most of their lives and shortages make the work shitty even after they pass the hazing phase.
Centigonal 5y ago
Here's a fun article that talks about why raising the barriers to entry for "professional" vocations maintains the status quo (but limits upward mobility) for people in those vocations, while increasing social inequality by shutting people out: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-bir...
- nobodyandproud 5y ago
  The barrier for entry is made artificially high for many medical professions. That doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be one.
shahbaby 5y ago
Doctors literally have their own organizations which actively work to limit the supply of medical school graduates. What would happen if they didn't have that legal protection? Look at Pharmacy; it used to be a great field until they started opening up Pharmacy schools everywhere and pumping out graduates nonstop. The same thing is now happening with CS. We have no legal protection to limit our supply. Luckily for us, most normal people don't find fulfillment in abstract problem solving but there's no reason why that can't change overtime.
- ushakov 5y ago
  > most normal people don't find fulfillment in abstract problem solving most normal people don't find fulfillment at work
- seibelj 5y ago
  Software development is the most globally distributed high paying job and is arguably one of the easiest to outsource. Yet FAANG keeps paying huge salaries when they could get 10x the number of people in foreign countries for the same price.
  - comp_throw7 5y ago
    Not really, if you look at levels.fyi you'll see that even in formerly "cheap" locales (India, Ukraine, etc) FAANG & comparable companies are paying 6 figures for experienced devs. There is obviously still a discount, but it's more like 3-5x rather than 10x, and rapidly shrinking (even as compensation in the US continues to skyrocket).
b20000 5y ago
doctors and lawyers have trade or professional organisations, bar exams, etc. they organized many years ago. computer science and engineering are still very young fields and we are at a point where we need to start organizing.

missedthecue 5y ago

I have a moral problem with trying to keep people out of a better life just to fatten my own income. If you want to be smarter and better and more skilled than the competition, that's great, but trying to keep supply low to rent-seek just seems insatiably greedy to me.

nobodyandproud 5y ago
The next time we hear about a security breach, who takes responsibility? Why are we allowing immature engineers and product managers to drive decisions that impact millions if not billions?
- missedthecue 5y ago
  The same people who take responsibility now? The topic on hand isn't whether we should encourage untrained 12 year olds to secure our technology. It's whether trained STEM educated professionals should. Some here don't want more STEM professionals because it would increase supply and reduce the equilibrium price (wages).
  - nobodyandproud 5y ago
    > The same people who take responsibility now? That’s not good enough. That’s why making software a trade is what some engineers have been pushing for. > Some here don't want more STEM professionals because it would increase supply and reduce the equilibrium price (wages). And some don’t want to see an influx of low-quality engineers, because these decisions have major negative consequences. The OP mentioned the push for more STEM workers, but the push for more STEM workers comes doesn’t equate to more CS degrees or STEM degreed workers. It’s also about bootcamps and a broad questioning of why a college degree is needed at all.
dizzystar 5y ago
I was in construction in my 20s. I earned $X when I was learning. A few years later, I was working independent and earning $Y. It ended up that $Y was lower than $X. This is akin to earning less as a senior dev than you did as a junior dev, except you'd also have to buy your own chair, desk, computer, and software license to work as a sr dev. The problem was multifold, and I think the crux of the situation. The people who entered the field didn't respect the field, and only aimed to undercut the next guy, causing wages to plummet in the span of 5 years. Software doesn't need that much protection yet, but that slide happens way faster than you think it will. It's not about keeping people out; it's about educating those who come in to respect the industry they are entering. Many people are actively preventing people from learning about the proper value of their work.
- ericd 5y ago
  I see no problem with people competing for work by lowering their bid? Sounds like you’re encouraging cartel-like behavior (which is, for example, why a pit of real estate agents still get paid 5-6% in a transaction despite clearly not being worth that, on average).
b20000 5y ago
the computer science field is under no obligation to fix all the hiring and career problems in existence, just like law or medicine is not under that obligation.
- ushakov 5y ago
  that's why we need unions!
  - b20000 5y ago
    why is this voted down?
    - logicalmonster 5y ago
      I neither upvoted or downvoted that comment, but this isn't Reddit. Low-effort opinion posts like that aren't the type of thing that people generally want to see here. As far as unions go, I always support the right of anybody to voluntarily organize, but unions are IMO a horrible fit for programming. I hate how this sounds, but programmers have a creative job that's not relatively fungible like say a house painter who does a relatively standardized task. The best painter in the world is physically capable of what, painting about 2 or 3 times more square feet per hour than an average painter? I don't know exactly, but I doubt that the best painter in the world is say 100x more effective than an average one. Programmers vary wildly in the value they produce. Good programmers who want to unionize are going to plant themselves near the lower tier of compensation when they easily provide 10x or 100x of the value that a less skilled programmer brings.
      - b20000 5y ago
        computer scientists are not programmers. programming is a task that might be done as part of what a computer scientist does. by organizing, further commodization of this very challenging and relatively modestly compensated profession can be prevented.
logicalmonster 5y ago
I'm not sure I follow your opinion here. In what way did anybody advocate preventing competition?
- missedthecue 5y ago
  "We developers need to wise up before it's too late. I don't see doctors advocating to lower the barriers of entry." How exactly did you interpret this?

throwawaynay 5y ago

except we are not doctors? the average web dev(aka most devs) is closer to a plumber or an electrician than a doctor maybe 10% of devs have actually complicated jobs, the rest is just crud BS we have access to good jobs and good salary because the educational system is crap, not because SWE is some kind of elite field unreachable to most people it's outrageous that learning about software development is not an option starting from middle school, at this point it's more important than like half of what you learn in school

amusedcyclist 5y ago
Please most medicine isn't that complex either. Only a small minority of doctors really do anything the average person cannot do. Its really just that they've set up barriers to protect themselves. The really complex stuff in any field generally involves open ended research-y work and the reality is that that research work has fairly low demand. Though to clarify, I don't think we should be setting up more barriers to software development, I think we should be reducing barriers to all fields. I also do agree we should be teaching basic coding to all kids, it would compliment math classes well. I also don't think basic webdev roles will pay this much in 10 years when the average person knows how to code.
- headmelted 5y ago
  Facts. Your GP isn’t a genius, and they’re more often than not just reading the solution from webmd the same way you might look it up on stackoverflow. I know this because my GP flat out told me this is the case. It’s certainly a job that requires a lot of skill, knowledge and experience so as not to do harm, but that’s true of software engineering too.
  - rdtwo 5y ago
    Your gp could probably be replaced with a chat bot
- logicalmonster 5y ago
  > when the average person knows how to code Some exposure to some kind of programming is probably a good thing, but I think this it is very unlikely for the average person to learn to code without either thousands of years of evolution, genetic engineering of humanity, or changing the definition of coding. The average person cannot build a consistent mental model of complex abstract concepts. Schools have done lots of tests to prospective CS students trying to see how they'd be as programmers. The point isn't to see if they got the right answer, the point was to see if they could merely come up with a consistent mental model of what abstract symbols mean, and many people can't do that.

rdtwo 5y ago

Yeah and look at where that got them in terms of quality of life and work. Doctors are caught in an elaborate hazing ritual most of their lives and shortages make the work shitty even after they pass the hazing phase.

Centigonal 5y ago

Here's a fun article that talks about why raising the barriers to entry for "professional" vocations maintains the status quo (but limits upward mobility) for people in those vocations, while increasing social inequality by shutting people out: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-bir...

nobodyandproud 5y ago
The barrier for entry is made artificially high for many medical professions. That doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be one.

shahbaby 5y ago

Doctors literally have their own organizations which actively work to limit the supply of medical school graduates. What would happen if they didn't have that legal protection? Look at Pharmacy; it used to be a great field until they started opening up Pharmacy schools everywhere and pumping out graduates nonstop. The same thing is now happening with CS. We have no legal protection to limit our supply. Luckily for us, most normal people don't find fulfillment in abstract problem solving but there's no reason why that can't change overtime.

ushakov 5y ago
> most normal people don't find fulfillment in abstract problem solving most normal people don't find fulfillment at work
seibelj 5y ago
Software development is the most globally distributed high paying job and is arguably one of the easiest to outsource. Yet FAANG keeps paying huge salaries when they could get 10x the number of people in foreign countries for the same price.
- comp_throw7 5y ago
  Not really, if you look at levels.fyi you'll see that even in formerly "cheap" locales (India, Ukraine, etc) FAANG & comparable companies are paying 6 figures for experienced devs. There is obviously still a discount, but it's more like 3-5x rather than 10x, and rapidly shrinking (even as compensation in the US continues to skyrocket).

b20000 5y ago

doctors and lawyers have trade or professional organisations, bar exams, etc. they organized many years ago. computer science and engineering are still very young fields and we are at a point where we need to start organizing.