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I reject the idea that everyone should know from these words that they will be subject to an enormous early cancellation fee if they forget to cancel before the

I reject the idea that everyone should know from these words that they will be subject to an enormous early cancellation fee if they forget to cancel before the 7 day trial period is over. Adobe has a moral obligation to explain that up-front, so that consumers who cannot easily pay the fee are adequately warned of the danger they are getting themselves into.

CharlesW 5y ago
> I reject the idea that everyone should know from these words that they will be subject to an enormous early cancellation fee if they forget to cancel before the 7 day trial period is over. I hear you, and I want to dig in on that a bit if you'll be kind enough to indulge me. I'm currently helping a SaaS vendor define their pricing plan, so I'd like to know what you would like to see in order to feel comfortable with an annual, paid monthly plan. If you have any thoughts on the two questions I asked, I'd really appreciate the feedback!
- civilized 5y ago
  Haven't I been clear enough? If you're going to charge a giant early cancellation fee, that information should not be hidden behind a link and fine print. It should be explained on the payment page, briefly and in plain language.
  - widerporst 5y ago
    I don't really get why the cancellation fee should be the issue here. When I purchase a subscription for a year, I assume that I will have to pay for the entire year. That's why it is cheaper per month than a monthly subscription. The cancellation fee might be quite high, but it is absolutely expected that there is one. And if I'm not sure if I'll keep the subscription running for an entire year, then I'll look into the cancellation term beforehand or simply pick the monthly plan.
    - civilized 5y ago
      Because some people might not have the background to think exactly the way you do. People are reporting that they were surprised by the cancellation fee. Is it reasonable to assume that these people were fully aware of what would happen? And chose this path anyway, in order to... what, exactly? It makes no sense. It's more reasonable to take what they say at face value, that they were in fact surprised and didn't understand in good faith what they signed up for. Given that, what is so unreasonable about expecting companies to be upfront about the fee and explain it in the payment page? Why is this trivial disclosure and transparency to the consumer something to balk about? I think the reason is pretty obvious. Companies have always loved it when confused customers have to pay money they didn't expect to pay. So the companies design their payment flows to encourage this, to the maximum extent the law allows. It's sociopathic, and just because it's common and accepted doesn't mean I have to think it's okay.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  I think maybe the words: "Yearly plan, billed in monthly instalments" makes the point more clear that you're in for a year. You can then put accompanying print that says "early termination fees apply". But really, apart from people perhaps not understanding that "Annual" is doing the work of saying "yearly, not rolling", I don't get the logic here.
- iam-TJ 5y ago
  As another interested in this aspect, how about an 'info' tip alongside that states the minimum cost with an asterix? "Yearly plan, paid monthly, £678" --> [ minimum cost £456 [[ a href="terms-cancel.html" ]] if cancelled early ]
unfocussed_mike 5y ago
In the interests of reaching a point of agreement, I concur that they could put, in or next to that initial wording, something like "early cancellation fees may apply". But an annual plan really is that. They are telling you pretty clearly* what you're buying; the fact that there's a way to bail out half way for less is an advance on that position. * though as I said in the other reply, "yearly" would be better
- civilized 5y ago
  These four words are clear enough to be legally defensible, but they are the absolute minimum and they are designed to be the absolute minimum. They want to maximize conversion even if it traps people who didn't understand in good faith what they were buying. It isn't hard to provide a complete explanation of what happens if you go past the trial period and want to cancel. All they have to say is, "if you don't cancel after the trial period, you are obligated to pay X over the next 12 months. Early cancellation is possible for a fee of half the remaining balance. For example, if you cancel immediately after the trial period your early cancellation fee will be X/2." There's plenty of space to feature this explanation prominently. We all know why they don't. It's to trap people. Many subscription plans work this way but it's no excuse. It's scumbag behavior. The fact that it's so common is just one of the many reasons why I believe the world is run by sociopaths.
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    > ... why I believe the world is run by sociopaths. Finally a point on which we agree. On average I suspect it is.
- Closi 5y ago
  > I concur that they could put, in or next to that initial wording, something like "early cancellation fees may apply". Again, this wording seems unnecessarily soft to me - the inclusion of 'may' adds ambiguity to make the user think that there might not be exit fees - it should really be "early cancellation fees will apply". Better yet, you could give the cost: "Early cancellation fees of 50% of the remainder of the year will apply".
chrisseaton 5y ago
What does 'annual plan' mean to you? How can you misinterpret those words?
- civilized 5y ago
  I would probably understand it, but I don't think those two words would necessarily make it clear to every person of every background, and it's very easy for Adobe to briefly explain the early termination fee on the payment page where everyone can easily see it. They don't explain it because they want everyone to convert, even people who did not understand what they signed up for and would not have signed up if they had understood. Subscription fee companies have always behaved like this.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > They don't explain it because they want everyone to convert Being charitable, I would guess that they don't explain it because it seems like plain language and should be understandable.
    - civilized 5y ago
      That's only "charitable" to the giant company. It's not so charitable to the people who say they were confused in good faith and signed up for something they wouldn't have signed up for if they had understood it. These people exist and have made themselves known in the OP Twitter thread and other HN comments on this post. I can't help but wonder if all this "how can people not understand" is just thinly-veiled contempt for people who don't have the same background or way of thinking or interpreting words as you do. Who gives a shit about those people, am I right? Who cares if they're on the hook for hundreds they didn't expect to have to pay. Good on Adobe for imposing that stupidity tax on lesser minds than yours!
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        If people can't understand 'annual plan' then I'm not sure what it's reasonable to do? How can you conduct business with a person who can't understand language like that?
ketzu 5y ago
> I reject the idea that everyone should know from these words that they will be subject to an enormous early cancellation fee if they forget to cancel before the 7 day trial period is over. Reading the twitter thread it seems to me that you can cancel within 14 days of subscribing without a cancelation fee. See also: https://twitter.com/darkpatterns/status/1489901691151519746 https://twitter.com/darkpatterns/status/1489901691151519746

CharlesW 5y ago

> I reject the idea that everyone should know from these words that they will be subject to an enormous early cancellation fee if they forget to cancel before the 7 day trial period is over. I hear you, and I want to dig in on that a bit if you'll be kind enough to indulge me. I'm currently helping a SaaS vendor define their pricing plan, so I'd like to know what you would like to see in order to feel comfortable with an annual, paid monthly plan. If you have any thoughts on the two questions I asked, I'd really appreciate the feedback!

civilized 5y ago
Haven't I been clear enough? If you're going to charge a giant early cancellation fee, that information should not be hidden behind a link and fine print. It should be explained on the payment page, briefly and in plain language.
- widerporst 5y ago
  I don't really get why the cancellation fee should be the issue here. When I purchase a subscription for a year, I assume that I will have to pay for the entire year. That's why it is cheaper per month than a monthly subscription. The cancellation fee might be quite high, but it is absolutely expected that there is one. And if I'm not sure if I'll keep the subscription running for an entire year, then I'll look into the cancellation term beforehand or simply pick the monthly plan.
  - civilized 5y ago
    Because some people might not have the background to think exactly the way you do. People are reporting that they were surprised by the cancellation fee. Is it reasonable to assume that these people were fully aware of what would happen? And chose this path anyway, in order to... what, exactly? It makes no sense. It's more reasonable to take what they say at face value, that they were in fact surprised and didn't understand in good faith what they signed up for. Given that, what is so unreasonable about expecting companies to be upfront about the fee and explain it in the payment page? Why is this trivial disclosure and transparency to the consumer something to balk about? I think the reason is pretty obvious. Companies have always loved it when confused customers have to pay money they didn't expect to pay. So the companies design their payment flows to encourage this, to the maximum extent the law allows. It's sociopathic, and just because it's common and accepted doesn't mean I have to think it's okay.
unfocussed_mike 5y ago
I think maybe the words: "Yearly plan, billed in monthly instalments" makes the point more clear that you're in for a year. You can then put accompanying print that says "early termination fees apply". But really, apart from people perhaps not understanding that "Annual" is doing the work of saying "yearly, not rolling", I don't get the logic here.
iam-TJ 5y ago
As another interested in this aspect, how about an 'info' tip alongside that states the minimum cost with an asterix? "Yearly plan, paid monthly, £678" --> [ minimum cost £456 [[ a href="terms-cancel.html" ]] if cancelled early ]

unfocussed_mike 5y ago

In the interests of reaching a point of agreement, I concur that they could put, in or next to that initial wording, something like "early cancellation fees may apply". But an annual plan really is that. They are telling you pretty clearly* what you're buying; the fact that there's a way to bail out half way for less is an advance on that position. * though as I said in the other reply, "yearly" would be better

civilized 5y ago
These four words are clear enough to be legally defensible, but they are the absolute minimum and they are designed to be the absolute minimum. They want to maximize conversion even if it traps people who didn't understand in good faith what they were buying. It isn't hard to provide a complete explanation of what happens if you go past the trial period and want to cancel. All they have to say is, "if you don't cancel after the trial period, you are obligated to pay X over the next 12 months. Early cancellation is possible for a fee of half the remaining balance. For example, if you cancel immediately after the trial period your early cancellation fee will be X/2." There's plenty of space to feature this explanation prominently. We all know why they don't. It's to trap people. Many subscription plans work this way but it's no excuse. It's scumbag behavior. The fact that it's so common is just one of the many reasons why I believe the world is run by sociopaths.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  > ... why I believe the world is run by sociopaths. Finally a point on which we agree. On average I suspect it is.
Closi 5y ago
> I concur that they could put, in or next to that initial wording, something like "early cancellation fees may apply". Again, this wording seems unnecessarily soft to me - the inclusion of 'may' adds ambiguity to make the user think that there might not be exit fees - it should really be "early cancellation fees will apply". Better yet, you could give the cost: "Early cancellation fees of 50% of the remainder of the year will apply".

chrisseaton 5y ago

What does 'annual plan' mean to you? How can you misinterpret those words?

civilized 5y ago
I would probably understand it, but I don't think those two words would necessarily make it clear to every person of every background, and it's very easy for Adobe to briefly explain the early termination fee on the payment page where everyone can easily see it. They don't explain it because they want everyone to convert, even people who did not understand what they signed up for and would not have signed up if they had understood. Subscription fee companies have always behaved like this.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > They don't explain it because they want everyone to convert Being charitable, I would guess that they don't explain it because it seems like plain language and should be understandable.
  - civilized 5y ago
    That's only "charitable" to the giant company. It's not so charitable to the people who say they were confused in good faith and signed up for something they wouldn't have signed up for if they had understood it. These people exist and have made themselves known in the OP Twitter thread and other HN comments on this post. I can't help but wonder if all this "how can people not understand" is just thinly-veiled contempt for people who don't have the same background or way of thinking or interpreting words as you do. Who gives a shit about those people, am I right? Who cares if they're on the hook for hundreds they didn't expect to have to pay. Good on Adobe for imposing that stupidity tax on lesser minds than yours!
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      If people can't understand 'annual plan' then I'm not sure what it's reasonable to do? How can you conduct business with a person who can't understand language like that?

ketzu 5y ago

> I reject the idea that everyone should know from these words that they will be subject to an enormous early cancellation fee if they forget to cancel before the 7 day trial period is over. Reading the twitter thread it seems to me that you can cancel within 14 days of subscribing without a cancelation fee. See also: https://twitter.com/darkpatterns/status/1489901691151519746 https://twitter.com/darkpatterns/status/1489901691151519746