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And what if they then send you to collections? Now you’ve got bill collectors after you and your credit affected.

deleted 5y ago
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laumars 5y ago
I can’t see Adobe going to those lengths because they’d know there is a good change they would lose any class action lawsuit that would come about. Which would not just cost them in damages but also in bad publicity plus likely get them ordered to remove the dark patterns too (thus removing any future revenue this dark otters generates). I’m not as clued up on consumer laws as I once was but I’m pretty sure in Europe their sign up page is actually illegal. Not just immoral but literally classed as false advertising or something similar. And even if that’s not the case, we do have protections against being tricked into signing an unclear contract and this would easily fall into that category.
- danaris 5y ago
  > any future revenue this dark otters generates ...I'm sorry; I know this is a typo/autocucumber, but now I can't help picturing these nefarious Adobe otters coming up with ways to scam us. Adorable yet evil!
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-59592355 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-59592355
- ihateolives 5y ago
  > Which would not just cost them in damages but also in bad publicity Unfortunately I think Adobe is beyond the point where few months of bad publicity would harm their core business. Amateurs would vote with their feet but professionals have really nowhere to go. There just are no alternatives to some of their programs.
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    Which products do you feel truly have no alternatives, and which features define that for you? The only one I can think of is After Effects, which appears to do a broader set of things than any other single package (but I could be wrong). The rest, well I am not convinced, though there are some edge features in each package that undeniably would sell them to a few people, and that is, I guess, in the right way of things.
    - _dain_ 5y ago
      GIMP has no CMYK support; that isn't an edge feature, it's a core need for working with print.
      - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
        Indeed -- a problem. I think Bloom did but they seem to have disappeared?
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  I don't know, I opened their page and the drop down was clearly labeled as an annual subscription to me. It also told me the exact date by which I should cancel not to infer any costs. The drop down offered me to pay the full year upfront, or a monthly plan which is cancellable at any time. I don't think this stuff is illegal at all. What they effectively did here is put the email address and personal information form in front of the product details instead of below them, change the buttons that normally say "next" to "start your free trial, but the information was all in plain view. Complain to your browser vendor about the lack of scroll bars if that's what's gotten you. The big scam here is the fact this program requires a monthly fee at all. All subscription services I know either have a minimum duration with similar cancellation fees (or you'd be on the hook for the full remainder of the fees instead of half) or they're advertised explicitly as being cancellable at any time. I don't think anyone was getting tricked, but I do believe people were entering a subscription without looking at the details.
  - vel0city 5y ago
    The author of this tweet thread even acknowledges it states the terms in the workflow. > But what does "Annual plan, paid monthly" actually mean? I don't understand how "Annual plan, paid monthly" could be taken as something confusing or requires some additional context to make any sense out of it. How are other people reading "Annual plan, paid monthly" any other way than that it is an annual plan broken out into monthly installments?
    - remus 5y ago
      For me it is more that the overall presentation is not clear. That wording on it's own is clear, but at every other stage in the process the implication is that it's a month to month commitment and not a full year you're signing up for. The fact that if you cancel they take half the year of payments and then only provide you with service for the remainder of the month is another nice little "fuck you" too.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - 5y ago
loeg 5y ago
I don’t think their agreement with the CC network lets them come after users for chargebacks the bank has approved. In a chargeback situation, the bank has to agree that the charge was unreasonable.
Msw242 5y ago
I used a virtual card (and froze it) for adobe. They haven't gone to collections. I get emails from them making offers to get me back on creative cloud. Nothing about the unpaid cancelled account.
- rdtwo 5y ago
  Virtual cards are a must with all these nasty subscriptions
hedora 5y ago
AT&T sent me to collections once because of an error on their part. I immediately disputed the charges with AT&T, then explained the situation to the collections officer. Collections officers can't try to collect disputed debts, so they immediately left me alone. Then, I spent over 24 hours on the phone with AT&T, and eventually paid them a bit under a hundred dollars that I didn't owe them. There was no credit report ding or harassment from the collections agency, at least.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

I can’t see Adobe going to those lengths because they’d know there is a good change they would lose any class action lawsuit that would come about. Which would not just cost them in damages but also in bad publicity plus likely get them ordered to remove the dark patterns too (thus removing any future revenue this dark otters generates). I’m not as clued up on consumer laws as I once was but I’m pretty sure in Europe their sign up page is actually illegal. Not just immoral but literally classed as false advertising or something similar. And even if that’s not the case, we do have protections against being tricked into signing an unclear contract and this would easily fall into that category.

danaris 5y ago
> any future revenue this dark otters generates ...I'm sorry; I know this is a typo/autocucumber, but now I can't help picturing these nefarious Adobe otters coming up with ways to scam us. Adorable yet evil!
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-59592355 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-59592355
ihateolives 5y ago
> Which would not just cost them in damages but also in bad publicity Unfortunately I think Adobe is beyond the point where few months of bad publicity would harm their core business. Amateurs would vote with their feet but professionals have really nowhere to go. There just are no alternatives to some of their programs.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  Which products do you feel truly have no alternatives, and which features define that for you? The only one I can think of is After Effects, which appears to do a broader set of things than any other single package (but I could be wrong). The rest, well I am not convinced, though there are some edge features in each package that undeniably would sell them to a few people, and that is, I guess, in the right way of things.
  - _dain_ 5y ago
    GIMP has no CMYK support; that isn't an edge feature, it's a core need for working with print.
    - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
      Indeed -- a problem. I think Bloom did but they seem to have disappeared?
jeroenhd 5y ago
I don't know, I opened their page and the drop down was clearly labeled as an annual subscription to me. It also told me the exact date by which I should cancel not to infer any costs. The drop down offered me to pay the full year upfront, or a monthly plan which is cancellable at any time. I don't think this stuff is illegal at all. What they effectively did here is put the email address and personal information form in front of the product details instead of below them, change the buttons that normally say "next" to "start your free trial, but the information was all in plain view. Complain to your browser vendor about the lack of scroll bars if that's what's gotten you. The big scam here is the fact this program requires a monthly fee at all. All subscription services I know either have a minimum duration with similar cancellation fees (or you'd be on the hook for the full remainder of the fees instead of half) or they're advertised explicitly as being cancellable at any time. I don't think anyone was getting tricked, but I do believe people were entering a subscription without looking at the details.
- vel0city 5y ago
  The author of this tweet thread even acknowledges it states the terms in the workflow. > But what does "Annual plan, paid monthly" actually mean? I don't understand how "Annual plan, paid monthly" could be taken as something confusing or requires some additional context to make any sense out of it. How are other people reading "Annual plan, paid monthly" any other way than that it is an annual plan broken out into monthly installments?
  - remus 5y ago
    For me it is more that the overall presentation is not clear. That wording on it's own is clear, but at every other stage in the process the implication is that it's a month to month commitment and not a full year you're signing up for. The fact that if you cancel they take half the year of payments and then only provide you with service for the remainder of the month is another nice little "fuck you" too.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - 5y ago

loeg 5y ago

I don’t think their agreement with the CC network lets them come after users for chargebacks the bank has approved. In a chargeback situation, the bank has to agree that the charge was unreasonable.

Msw242 5y ago

I used a virtual card (and froze it) for adobe. They haven't gone to collections. I get emails from them making offers to get me back on creative cloud. Nothing about the unpaid cancelled account.

rdtwo 5y ago
Virtual cards are a must with all these nasty subscriptions

hedora 5y ago

AT&T sent me to collections once because of an error on their part. I immediately disputed the charges with AT&T, then explained the situation to the collections officer. Collections officers can't try to collect disputed debts, so they immediately left me alone. Then, I spent over 24 hours on the phone with AT&T, and eventually paid them a bit under a hundred dollars that I didn't owe them. There was no credit report ding or harassment from the collections agency, at least.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]