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You're just defending the right of a giant corporation to communicate poorly in a way that enriches them at the expense of customers, who are often struggling a

You're just defending the right of a giant corporation to communicate poorly in a way that enriches them at the expense of customers, who are often struggling artists. > "Annual plan, billed monthly" is about as easy as it's going to be in four words on a button or by a button. It's absolutely insane that you think Adobe has fulfilled their obligations to communicate to the customer what they're getting into by putting "annual plan paid monthly" in a drop-down next to a button. Adobe should warn the user of the early cancellation fees in big red letters. We all know why they don't: because they benefit from some users taking a deal that they don't realize is very bad for them. That's what you're defending.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago
> You're just defending the right of a giant corporation to communicate poorly in a way that enriches them. Thanks for the downvote (I guess) but no, I'm doing no such thing. I'm explaining that the giant monopoly is going to do what the giant monopoly does. Really almost all subscriptions are like this -- they depend on you forgetting to cancel. And this one is a bit more up-front than most. > It's absolutely insane that you think Adobe has fulfilled their obligations to communicate to the customer what they're getting into by putting "annual plan paid monthly" in a drop-down next to a button. Sorry, this is a straw man. I didn't at all say that I thought those four words fulfilled their obligations. What I said is, they have a maximally clear four word way of summarising the plan right at the beginning of the payment flow. I'm quite sure they need to do a bit more to explain what the early cancellation options are at some point in the payment flow. But right before you even try to buy, they do explain you're buying an annual plan, don't they? FWIW, if you do not grasp that "annual plan" means an annual plan and then think about what your early cancellation options might be, perhaps you shouldn't be using the company credit card. Complaining loudly that you can't use something clearly marked as an annual plan for just one month is a bit of a stretch.
- civilized 5y ago
  What a staggering battery of distortions. Company credit card? You're just assuming that everyone doing this is spending someone else's money? Everything you've written functions to blame the victim and leave Adobe harmless here.
  - CharlesW 5y ago
    > You're just assuming that everyone doing this is spending someone else's money? To be fair, you're also assuming that starving artists are paying for Photoshop. A quick "Adobe" search on your BitTorrent tracker of choice may change your mind.
    - civilized 5y ago
      Plenty of low-income people do their best to follow the law out of conscientiousness. I know some of them personally. I object passionately to the idea that, when people misunderstand communication that's designed to be maximally misleading, subject only to the constraint of legal defensibility, they are entirely to blame for falling into the trap. Adobe should be very clear and upfront about their early cancellation fees.
      - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
        "Annual plan, billed monthly" is demonstrably not maximally misleading. If it said "monthly subscription" without clearly identifying the annual commitment, that would be maximally misleading. I will grant you that it could say "Yearly plan", not "Annual plan", and be less misleading; they do appear to use this alternative phrasing in A/B tests. If anyone from Adobe is reading this thread: make that change. (And sort out your Photography plan: make a slimmer version of Photoshop that really does have just the features photographers need, and offer a plan for that.)
        civilized 5y ago
        Monthly subscription would simply be a legally indefensible lie.
    - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
      Yes, but also we're talking about the whole Creative Cloud suite, not Photoshop here. There's a Photoshop-only plan that costs about £11 per month and there are Black Friday deals which are well understood by the budget photographer world to provide better value for money than this. (Even then it is poor value for money, IMO; other packages cover 95% of the functionality of Photoshop and cost less than a year of this, and I really think the market understands that now)
- CapsAdmin 5y ago
  > Thanks for the downvote (I guess) but no, I'm doing no such thing. I'm explaining that the giant monopoly is going to do what the giant monopoly does. Isn't it our job as consumers to raise awareness and try to change this behavior though? There's something about this sort of argument that seems off to me. Someone complains about someone doing X, then someone else comes along and says it's always been like that. Why does that matter?
CharlesW 5y ago
> It's absolutely insane that you think Adobe has fulfilled their obligations to communicate to the customer what they're getting into by putting "annual plan paid monthly" in a drop-down next to a button. "Annual plan, paid monthly" seems pretty clear to me too, so help me approach this with a new perspective. Is there a SaaS provider using the "annual plan, paid monthly" who does this "right"? Are you against this pricing model in general?
- civilized 5y ago
  I reject the idea that everyone should know from these words that they will be subject to an enormous early cancellation fee if they forget to cancel before the 7 day trial period is over. Adobe has a moral obligation to explain that up-front, so that consumers who cannot easily pay the fee are adequately warned of the danger they are getting themselves into.
  - CharlesW 5y ago
    > I reject the idea that everyone should know from these words that they will be subject to an enormous early cancellation fee if they forget to cancel before the 7 day trial period is over. I hear you, and I want to dig in on that a bit if you'll be kind enough to indulge me. I'm currently helping a SaaS vendor define their pricing plan, so I'd like to know what you would like to see in order to feel comfortable with an annual, paid monthly plan. If you have any thoughts on the two questions I asked, I'd really appreciate the feedback!
    - civilized 5y ago
      Haven't I been clear enough? If you're going to charge a giant early cancellation fee, that information should not be hidden behind a link and fine print. It should be explained on the payment page, briefly and in plain language.
      - widerporst 5y ago
        I don't really get why the cancellation fee should be the issue here. When I purchase a subscription for a year, I assume that I will have to pay for the entire year. That's why it is cheaper per month than a monthly subscription. The cancellation fee might be quite high, but it is absolutely expected that there is one. And if I'm not sure if I'll keep the subscription running for an entire year, then I'll look into the cancellation term beforehand or simply pick the monthly plan.
defaultname 5y ago
For most users it isn't a bad deal at all. It's a 33% price savings over straight monthly, and I suspect many/most users have subscriptions much longer than a year. This all seems a bit overwrought. Like the root post, I cannot fathom who would go through a purchase process that included the phrase "Annual plan, billed monthly" and not clue in. Or that that drop down includes a separate straight monthly plan at a significant price premium (50% higher). To give even more of a hint, a separate "you have until this date to cancel without a penalty" disclaimer gives another clue. On the scale of dark patterns, this one is pretty eh. It clearly could be clearer for people who seem to just click straight through stuff, but I suspect a lot of the people chose the cheaper per month annual plan thinking they were hacking the system, and then discovered that it wasn't all upside.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  > This all seems a bit overwrought. Like the root post, I cannot fathom who would go through a purchase process that included the phrase "Annual plan, billed monthly" and not clue in. FWIW (mine is the root post and) I am definitely coming around to the idea that it should at least say "Yearly", and maybe say "in monthly installments", because that language may be more familiar to buyers. But the rest of your point about the other plan you can choose is right. I don't yet believe Adobe is evil, either. Banal, corporate, plodding, slow-witted, yeah. It is definitely an 800 pound gorilla.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago

> You're just defending the right of a giant corporation to communicate poorly in a way that enriches them. Thanks for the downvote (I guess) but no, I'm doing no such thing. I'm explaining that the giant monopoly is going to do what the giant monopoly does. Really almost all subscriptions are like this -- they depend on you forgetting to cancel. And this one is a bit more up-front than most. > It's absolutely insane that you think Adobe has fulfilled their obligations to communicate to the customer what they're getting into by putting "annual plan paid monthly" in a drop-down next to a button. Sorry, this is a straw man. I didn't at all say that I thought those four words fulfilled their obligations. What I said is, they have a maximally clear four word way of summarising the plan right at the beginning of the payment flow. I'm quite sure they need to do a bit more to explain what the early cancellation options are at some point in the payment flow. But right before you even try to buy, they do explain you're buying an annual plan, don't they? FWIW, if you do not grasp that "annual plan" means an annual plan and then think about what your early cancellation options might be, perhaps you shouldn't be using the company credit card. Complaining loudly that you can't use something clearly marked as an annual plan for just one month is a bit of a stretch.

civilized 5y ago
What a staggering battery of distortions. Company credit card? You're just assuming that everyone doing this is spending someone else's money? Everything you've written functions to blame the victim and leave Adobe harmless here.
- CharlesW 5y ago
  > You're just assuming that everyone doing this is spending someone else's money? To be fair, you're also assuming that starving artists are paying for Photoshop. A quick "Adobe" search on your BitTorrent tracker of choice may change your mind.
  - civilized 5y ago
    Plenty of low-income people do their best to follow the law out of conscientiousness. I know some of them personally. I object passionately to the idea that, when people misunderstand communication that's designed to be maximally misleading, subject only to the constraint of legal defensibility, they are entirely to blame for falling into the trap. Adobe should be very clear and upfront about their early cancellation fees.
    - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
      "Annual plan, billed monthly" is demonstrably not maximally misleading. If it said "monthly subscription" without clearly identifying the annual commitment, that would be maximally misleading. I will grant you that it could say "Yearly plan", not "Annual plan", and be less misleading; they do appear to use this alternative phrasing in A/B tests. If anyone from Adobe is reading this thread: make that change. (And sort out your Photography plan: make a slimmer version of Photoshop that really does have just the features photographers need, and offer a plan for that.)
      - civilized 5y ago
        Monthly subscription would simply be a legally indefensible lie.
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    Yes, but also we're talking about the whole Creative Cloud suite, not Photoshop here. There's a Photoshop-only plan that costs about £11 per month and there are Black Friday deals which are well understood by the budget photographer world to provide better value for money than this. (Even then it is poor value for money, IMO; other packages cover 95% of the functionality of Photoshop and cost less than a year of this, and I really think the market understands that now)
CapsAdmin 5y ago
> Thanks for the downvote (I guess) but no, I'm doing no such thing. I'm explaining that the giant monopoly is going to do what the giant monopoly does. Isn't it our job as consumers to raise awareness and try to change this behavior though? There's something about this sort of argument that seems off to me. Someone complains about someone doing X, then someone else comes along and says it's always been like that. Why does that matter?

CharlesW 5y ago

> It's absolutely insane that you think Adobe has fulfilled their obligations to communicate to the customer what they're getting into by putting "annual plan paid monthly" in a drop-down next to a button. "Annual plan, paid monthly" seems pretty clear to me too, so help me approach this with a new perspective. Is there a SaaS provider using the "annual plan, paid monthly" who does this "right"? Are you against this pricing model in general?

civilized 5y ago
I reject the idea that everyone should know from these words that they will be subject to an enormous early cancellation fee if they forget to cancel before the 7 day trial period is over. Adobe has a moral obligation to explain that up-front, so that consumers who cannot easily pay the fee are adequately warned of the danger they are getting themselves into.
- CharlesW 5y ago
  > I reject the idea that everyone should know from these words that they will be subject to an enormous early cancellation fee if they forget to cancel before the 7 day trial period is over. I hear you, and I want to dig in on that a bit if you'll be kind enough to indulge me. I'm currently helping a SaaS vendor define their pricing plan, so I'd like to know what you would like to see in order to feel comfortable with an annual, paid monthly plan. If you have any thoughts on the two questions I asked, I'd really appreciate the feedback!
  - civilized 5y ago
    Haven't I been clear enough? If you're going to charge a giant early cancellation fee, that information should not be hidden behind a link and fine print. It should be explained on the payment page, briefly and in plain language.
    - widerporst 5y ago
      I don't really get why the cancellation fee should be the issue here. When I purchase a subscription for a year, I assume that I will have to pay for the entire year. That's why it is cheaper per month than a monthly subscription. The cancellation fee might be quite high, but it is absolutely expected that there is one. And if I'm not sure if I'll keep the subscription running for an entire year, then I'll look into the cancellation term beforehand or simply pick the monthly plan.

defaultname 5y ago

For most users it isn't a bad deal at all. It's a 33% price savings over straight monthly, and I suspect many/most users have subscriptions much longer than a year. This all seems a bit overwrought. Like the root post, I cannot fathom who would go through a purchase process that included the phrase "Annual plan, billed monthly" and not clue in. Or that that drop down includes a separate straight monthly plan at a significant price premium (50% higher). To give even more of a hint, a separate "you have until this date to cancel without a penalty" disclaimer gives another clue. On the scale of dark patterns, this one is pretty eh. It clearly could be clearer for people who seem to just click straight through stuff, but I suspect a lot of the people chose the cheaper per month annual plan thinking they were hacking the system, and then discovered that it wasn't all upside.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago
> This all seems a bit overwrought. Like the root post, I cannot fathom who would go through a purchase process that included the phrase "Annual plan, billed monthly" and not clue in. FWIW (mine is the root post and) I am definitely coming around to the idea that it should at least say "Yearly", and maybe say "in monthly installments", because that language may be more familiar to buyers. But the rest of your point about the other plan you can choose is right. I don't yet believe Adobe is evil, either. Banal, corporate, plodding, slow-witted, yeah. It is definitely an 800 pound gorilla.