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First images of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain during sleep (2019)
- sva_ 5y ago(October 2019)
- dang 5y agoYear added above. Thanks!
- wincy 5y agoVery cool. My daughter has a brain shunt due to complications of spina bifida and so we’re thinking of cerebrospinal fluid on a regular basis. As a layman I guess there’s a particular cerebrospinal fluid pressure you want, and that being too high or too low causes issues? Apparently the shunt just drains into her belly so I also found that interesting. Too high and she’ll have terrible headaches and an “alien” head (sorry, don’t mean offense by that but it’s what I’m trying to avoid for my child) and I don’t know what would happen with too little, maybe someone could tell me. Probably not good I’m assuming. I frequent some FB groups for parents of children with SB and am shocked at how large some people let their kids heads get without consulting with or complaining to a doctor.
- asia92 5y agowhat exactly do you mean by alien head? not offended, just curious
- sezna 5y agoa physically large head, shaped similarly to a stereotypical alien head
- turnerc 5y agoI believe they mean enlarging of the fontanelle as is typical in those with hydrocephalus.
- airstrike 5y agoYou can google "hydrocephalus", though I should warn the images can be a bit disturbing
- 1-6 5y agoAt least in the US, early intervention allows doctors to recommend shunts so extreme cases of hydrocephalus can be avoided and head sizes normalize a bit as kids grow. The photos are usually from med textbooks and for teaching future doctors and usually demonstrating the extreme forms. Let’s not say alien head. My biggest worry as a young dad was my child being called names because of his head circumference. He too was born with HC.
- airstrike 5y ago> Let’s not say alien head. To be clear, I never said that and agree the term shouldn't be used at all.
- wincy 5y agoI can’t post the specific child’s picture as it wasn’t posted publicly and I wouldn’t want to disrespect them, but here’s some examples of less severe hydrocephalus you’ll see often in spina bifida parenting groups [0] [1]. Often people don’t comment on ones like that as everyone wants to get along but if it’s left untreated it can eventually progress to be much more severe and cause debilitating headaches and mental retardation. Interestingly, in googling this apparently low pressure cerebrospinal fluid headaches are also a thing [2], so keeping just the right amount of cerebrospinal fluid draining is a must. [0] https://www.hydroassoc.org/people-view/wylie-6-months/ https://www.hydroassoc.org/people-view/wylie-6-months/ [1] https://www.travelblog.org/Photos/253290 https://www.travelblog.org/Photos/253290 [2] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/headache/low-csf-headache https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...
- chriscross 5y agoToo little CSF leads to the brain crushing itself under gravity. The brain is almost entirely lipids which contributes to its buoyancy in CSF. Take away too much CSF, nothing for it to float in. Too much CSF? The skull is a fixed volume (in adults) so the CSF compresses the brain tissue. In kids, the sutures or junctions between bones of the skull are still flexible. This allows for childbirth and normal rapid brain growth. It’s easy to tell if there too much fluid around the brain in a newborn because their front soft spot (Fontanelle) will bulge or become firm. A bulging fontanelle also occurs with other pathologies like meningitis.
- dhmallon 5y agoIf there is too little CSF (e.g. a CSF leak), the brain 'slumps' but it doesn't "crush itself under gravity". Too much CSF can lead to hydrocephalus, which is enlargement of the ventricles. I wouldn't describe it as CSF "compressing" the brain tissue.
- treeman79 5y agoHad a spinal leak after a spinal tap. So too little fluid. It’s a very unique pain. Severe pain at top of head unless laying flat. I spent an entire week laying flat on a couch with a happy cat sitting on my chest. Initial treatment was an IV of caffeine. Then they they had to patch the hole.
- bobowzki 5y agoI think it drains into the peritoneum but I'm not completely sure. There's a resistance on the shunt to maintain pressure. Too high will cause hydrocephalus with all sorts of complications. Too low will cause a massive headache short term, long term I'm not sure. I'm an anesthesiologist and frequently work with neurosurgeons.
- jac241 5y agoThey tunnel it in the subq until the abdomen then they make a tiny incision in the peritoneum and depending on the neurosurgeon may have general surgery take a look laparoscopically to make sure there’s CSF flow then use the grasper to try to toss it in the right pericolic gutter over the liver.
- sizzle 5y agoHow do they avoid bacteria from going up a shunt to the brain?
- serf 5y agoI thought that was an interesting question as a layman. I found this, which I thought was an interesting read. [0] [0]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/shunt-infection https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/...
- jac241 5y agoYeah sterile technique has to be meticulous in shunt cases. There’s evidence that the number of people scrubbed into the case influences the shunt infection rate so students like me occasionally would not be permitted to scrub.
- jac241 5y agoThere’s generally no bacteria outside of the food tube though it certainly could happen the way you describe if there happened to be.
- mensetmanusman 5y agoThe technical founder of this company is developing wireless monitors for this cerebrospinal fluid pressure: https://www.rhaeos.com/ https://www.rhaeos.com/ We got to hear him speak pre-pandemic, definitely cool tech.
- zaptrem 5y agoI know someone who could benefit significantly from this. How would he go about acquiring one?
- tsoukase 5y agoToo little CSF leads to slit ventricle syndrome with a scary clinical image but not life threatening. Direct consequence is bilateral subdural hygromas.
- graderjs 5y agoI'm not a doctor and don't at all want to pretend to presume I can understand for sure what would or wouldn't be helpful. And I'm not assuming you need help--but I just thought something I know might be helpful somehow for your daughter and you. Certain type of yoga breathing exercises (pranayama), as a result of involving contracting muscles in the body while breathing, help to pump CS fluid through its "ventricles", as well as to move lymph around. I have no idea how a shunt works, or would interact with these exercises, but as a result of the shunt intervention I'm worried these exercises may be dangerous to your daughter. At the same time, I consider they may also be helpful, by perhaps helping to regulate pressures, or assist training the body to improve its ability to do so, or encourage circulation of the CSF and lymph. Stuff like this might be something useful to explore for you. Have a good day!
- buovjaga 5y agoPublications from the lab: https://www.lewisneurolab.org/publications https://www.lewisneurolab.org/publications
- seesawtron 5y agoFunny that the lab provides an "open-access link" to this 2019 paper which turns out to be the opposite.
- jonnycomputer 5y agoThis is very cool. Should be tagged 2019 though. Would be interesting to see if individual differences in this process is correlated with psychiatric disorders at all.
- bjackman 5y agoRe falling asleep during MRI - I was a subject in a study where for about an hour you had to lie in a machine and repeatedly indicate which of two pictures depicted a larger object. They said subjects falling asleep was a big problem! I find sleeping very difficult and even I was feeling extremely drowsy after 45 mins of lying down and establishing "elephants are bigger than mice. Houses are bigger than shoes. Trees are bigger than flowers. Cars are bigger than dogs etc etc etc"
- Mezzie 5y agoI get an MRI once a year and I frequently fall asleep because nothing puts me to sleep like mechanical white noise. It's kind of a problem because I try to move or jerk awake, which ruins the MRI. My MRIs take forever. I feel terrible for the attendants.
- datameta 5y agoI used to get a funny look when instead of a choice of music I opted for silence in the headphones during an MRI. Then I think I started to say it dismissively enough with conviction and got nonreactions.
- Mezzie 5y agoI never understood opting for music. MRIs are so loud; the last thing I want on top of it is competing noise. How is that not sheer cacophony?
- datameta 5y agoMRIs are stunningly loud indeed. The music would distract me from the noise patterns which other than being interesting to me don't keep me from napping in what to me is a cozy tunnel (whereas the music might).
- lrvick 5y agoI find loud screamo music the most soothing and compliments background machinery well.
- dtgriscom 5y agoCool video, but it would be much cooler if there was some idea of the timescale (i.e. how often do these waves occur?). I doubt that it's shown real-time; perhaps 10x or 100x?
- dtgriscom 5y agoAnd, I've been searching for the actual study/paper, but with no success. 'Twould be good for the BU press blurb to link to it...
- dtgriscom 5y agoFound it, I think: https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.aax5440 https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.aax5440 But, it isn't open-access...
- icegreentea2 5y agoPre-print: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7309589/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7309589/ Final (need $$): https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aax5440 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aax5440
- odnes 5y agoThe pre-print say the pulses occur with a frequency of ~0.05 Hz (once every 20s). So at a guess the video is sped up 20x.
- erikerikson 5y agoThis is curious. During my research into neutral networks we depended on a neuroscience result that found waves of trophic factor (i.e. the stuff used to build up neurons [i.e. learn]) travel in cascading waves from the core of the brain to the periphery. By adding a sense of location and a learning term contingent on the factor we saw learning (xor) prohibited by Minsky's result (not really prohibited because we changed the model). The take away was that our models of ANNs benefit from considering more that just neural signaling (i.e. solution contents and fluid dynamics). Is anyone aware of modern work expanding on that front?
- alok-g 5y agoNot what you asked - I (no expert in neuroscience) had come across a neuroscience article in around 2004, which I could not find again, and on which I never came across anything else either. This said that myelination happens differently in different parts of the brain, culminating everywhere by adulthood. I had found that very interesting. If someone knows more about this, I would like to hear. :-)
- whimsicalism 5y agoWas this research conducted prior to 2005? I find the whole xor result to be pretty irrelevant, which I think is representative of the field writ large. > Is anyone aware of modern work expanding on that front? I am curious about this as well, as well as the general state of biological inspiration in the field. My impression was that biological analogy had largely been pretty much completely moved away from, except as someplace to take inspiration from in terms of what optimization can achieve.
- erikerikson 5y agoYes, 2004 but now I'm curious why you ask. ?
- whimsicalism 5y agojust because 90s-early 00s is the time period where I perceive this style of research to have been at its peak, so I was curious if my assumptions were correct
- exdsq 5y agoOh cool, my wife’s in the lab of one of the coauthors. It seems like brain imaging is a really really small world.
- nomadpenguin 5y agoI recently worked on a project involving segmenting clinical CT scans. Almost every python package for working with CTs was written by the same guy.
- hbarka 5y agoWhat is the ideal sleeping position to maximize brain wash? Is it back, side, slightly inclined? Fluids theory would surely dictate how we can better align our body to encourage this. Intuition says our neck torsion must be instrumental to a good flow.
- staticassertion 5y agoIf I'm lucky, constant tossing and turning.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- hbarka 5y agoA few years ago, before Covid era (BC :), I did a tour of medieval castles in Europe and one observation that stuck in my memory was that the beds used by the royalty were constructed with an inclined position. I’m really curious how prevalent this was and if it was the preferred luxury style of the rich. In parts of Asia hard pillows (reeds/woven) were preferred over down.
- MithrilTuxedo 5y agoI assume you would want to rotate.
- ilrwbwrkhv 5y agoWonder if transcendental meditation achieves something similar.
- steve_adams_86 5y agoThis comment indicated that meditation might have an effect. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30222210#30228358 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30222210#30228358 Edit: here as well https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30222210#30227672 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30222210#30227672
- turnerc 5y agoOpen-access link: https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.aax5440 https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.aax5440 Registration is required.
- toss1 5y agoVery cool. I'd be very curious see if there are similar effects from basic meditation and/or from very advanced meditation in yogic or Buddhist traditions.
- ninesnines 5y agoHello! Because we see significant changes in CSF that can be induced by respiration, and meditation is known to decrease the frequency of respiration, I would expect there to be significant effects of CSF flow with meditation [1]. Beyond this, we know that with individuals who are good at meditating seem to induce theta waves in EEG [2]. Because there is a coupling between EEG/fMRI global hemodynamic signal/CSF flow, I would also expect there to be a change in CSF that may be coupled with the EEG rhythms. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3895787/pdf/2045-8118-10-36.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3895787/pdf/204... 2. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19922249/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19922249/
- toss1 5y agoIndeed! And it might also be easier to test the various meditative states vs testing sleep states in such a machine...
- Robotbeat 5y agoAm I the only one for whom the video isn’t loading? On iPhone. Very frustrating. (Of course, requesting the Desktop version does jacks***—-only the mobile page is displayed, as expected…)
- ghostly_s 5y agoIt's loading for me on iphone, but I’m not seeing any blue waves? Just red waves in increasing frequency. Very confused.
- imperfect_light 5y agoInteresting but is there any comparison with CSF while awake? Is there more CSF movement while sleeping?
- ninesnines 5y agoHello! This 2019 paper touches on CSF while awake -- CSF tends to be coupled with the respiration cycle. We know that you can also induce CSF flow by changing respiration [1]. Recent papers have shown that there can be coupling between the hemodynamic response and CSF while individuals are awake [2]. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3895787/pdf/2045-8118-10-36.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3895787/pdf/204... 2. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0271678X221074639 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0271678X2210746...
- Mazgas 5y agoI had a friend who had a surgery to unblock the cerebral fluid paths. Not sure if "shunt" is a technical name for it, but that's what he said. Also, he said he had insomnia before it. Really cool to see it. Internal plumbing of a human body.
- samstave 5y agoThis really scares the shit out of me, because I have chronic insomnia, and I am aware of the effect of sleep on not just how my brain feels - but also my vision and eye-lids (being SUPER heavy even when my mind is racing....) I know how important sleep is to brain function, clearly... And it causes ADDITIONAL anxiety, snowballing into more insomnia... Fucking sucks.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- daanlo 5y agoWhat helped me the most against my insomnia is simply accepting it. I just stopped fighting to try to sleep. It didn‘t help immediately, but at least the time that I wasn‘t falling asleep was less painful. Over time (several months/years) my insomnia eventually went away. Years later I listened to an audio book by The psychologist Viktor Frankl, that also helped me relax about the topic. And of course jogging (without music) or something similar that essentially switches off your brain during day time.
- samstave 5y agoWow - So a few comments on what you beautifully wrote for me: * I attempt to accept it and Breathe - (Some WIM HOF and I just received the book "BREATH" [0] <-- technically i just received via grabbing from my book-shelf after having bought it 6-months ago, without ever picking it up.... :-( --> :-)) [0] https://www.mrjamesnestor.com/ https://www.mrjamesnestor.com/ --- But running used to be my thing... in ~2002 I was running 15 miles a day at ~5 MPH... In august 2021 I rode my 29"er 1,000 miles! --- Exercise helps cancel out Depressopiona
- euroderf 5y agoThink of sleep as a powerwash for the sticky trash-covered movie theater floor that is your brain. When the big screen goes dark, break out the hoses and scrub away all that accumulated crud.
- mensetmanusman 5y agoSensory input goes dark, but the brain is quite active creating simulated spaces and threat response environments.
- bitL 5y agoI had some crazy dream once when some unexpected home visitors in black suits suddenly started shooting at me and I did an all-out-effort to escape them, running/jumping like crazy. While I ran as fast as I could (it really felt that way), I heard some dampened noise as if somebody was screaming. Soon I somehow escaped and was suddenly waking up. That was when I realized it was me screaming while dreaming about escaping the attack. My heartbeat was over 180 as well. I am wondering what was my brain preparing me for.
- JumpCrisscross 5y agoWhy can’t we garbage collect while conscious? (Serious question. If you simulated this washing behaviour in a conscious brain, what would go wrong and is that addressable?)
- ninesnines 5y agoHello! I think we have to parse this apart a bit. There have been some recent studies that show CSF is related to movement of metabolites in the brain, however these findings are very new. So if you theoretically wanted to induce more CSF flow while awake, I think this would be possible, but you would have to use a pretty obnoxious stimulus or use a deep breathing exercise - e.g meditation But because we don’t know the complete reason of why we have changes in CSF flow when people are asleep, maybe there are other mechanisms going on that are acting simultaneously with sleep — e.g large fluctuations in blood flow may be necessary to induce CSF flow
- axiosgunnar 5y agoMaybe the same reason you cannot VACUUM FULL a Postgres database while used in production?
- ninesnines 5y agoHi all! If you go to scihub and type in the name of the article you can download a pdf https://sci-hub.41610.org/amp https://sci-hub.41610.org/amp Scihubs address moves, so you can type into google ‘where is scihub’ if the link doesn’t work The name of the original article is: Coupled electrophysiological, hemodynamic, and cerebrospinal fluid oscillations in human sleep
- rajnathani 5y ago> One explanation may be that when the neurons shut off, they don’t require as much oxygen, so blood leaves the area. As the blood leaves, pressure in the brain drops, and CSF quickly flows in to maintain pressure at a safe level. If this theory about the blood leaving the brain due to the neurons needing less of it during sleep is true, then possibly that could be a supporting argument for why being more relaxed (i.e less stressed) before sleep is helpful for better sleep. My explanation for the hypothesis in the previous sentence is that the neurons due to being more worked out from being stressed would require the oxygenated blood to replenish them and thus the CSF would not naturally be able to seep in early while in bed for sleep.