3 ms·

Even though the WMD charge appears in hindsight to be fabricated, Sadam invaded Iran (1980), continued war with Iran (until 1988), used the Iraq military to lev

by ethbr0 5y ago

Even though the WMD charge appears in hindsight to be fabricated, Sadam invaded Iran (1980), continued war with Iran (until 1988), used the Iraq military to level entire Kurdish villages, used mustard gas and other chemical agents against the Kurds, and invaded Kuwait (1990). Objectively good world leader, he was not.

mc32 5y ago
Sure but that was not the pretext they used. They used fabrication instead.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Absolutely. They lied. Whether intentionally or unintentionally, we'll probably know. But even at the most charitable, they circulated intelligence that they knew to be unreliable while concealing that unreliability.
  - williamstein 5y ago
    An annoying thing about the word "lie" is that it is defined in some definitions as "an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceive". By this definition it is impossible to unintentionally lie. Another definition of lie is "an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer". You'll find both definitions at [1]. This makes this discussion about what Colin Powell said difficult, because as you point out, it's hard to know to what extent Powell actually knew for sure that he was making false statements about Iraq, given the assessment of foot soldiers at the CIA and the intent of Saddam to mislead the West for his own benefit. [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie
errcorrectcode 5y ago
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. If Team America World Police imperial global colonization authority with military bases all over the world like the friggin Roman Empire must right every regime, then it needs to invade Russia, North Korea, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, India, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Myanmar too.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Because evil exists is not a reason to not confront evil. America lied (either intentionally or unintentionally) about the reasons for invading Iraq post-9/11. But that isn't to say that removing Saddam Hussein from power wasn't a global or regional good. It's trendy and low-hanging fruit to bash the American military for international involvements, or its many failures. But it's equally important to note that the times America has turned inward and taken a more isolationist stance have resulted in the greatest turns away from international diplomacy and transgressions of international human rights. The alternative to "Team America World Police imperial global colonization authority with military bases all over the world like the friggin Roman Empire" is not "life as we know it, minus America." It's every country is one dictator or military coup away from becoming an undemocratic state. So I'd weigh how happy a citizen of Myanmar or Venezuela are with their life vs the ugliness of American military power.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  > needs to invade Russia Having lived next to Russia I’d love to see it wiped off the map. Easily the worst nation in the world. Basically a terrorist state. Disgusting.

by ethbr0 5y ago

mc32 5y ago

Sure but that was not the pretext they used. They used fabrication instead.

ethbr0 5y ago
Absolutely. They lied. Whether intentionally or unintentionally, we'll probably know. But even at the most charitable, they circulated intelligence that they knew to be unreliable while concealing that unreliability.
- williamstein 5y ago
  An annoying thing about the word "lie" is that it is defined in some definitions as "an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceive". By this definition it is impossible to unintentionally lie. Another definition of lie is "an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer". You'll find both definitions at [1]. This makes this discussion about what Colin Powell said difficult, because as you point out, it's hard to know to what extent Powell actually knew for sure that he was making false statements about Iraq, given the assessment of foot soldiers at the CIA and the intent of Saddam to mislead the West for his own benefit. [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie

errcorrectcode 5y ago

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. If Team America World Police imperial global colonization authority with military bases all over the world like the friggin Roman Empire must right every regime, then it needs to invade Russia, North Korea, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, India, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Myanmar too.

ethbr0 5y ago
Because evil exists is not a reason to not confront evil. America lied (either intentionally or unintentionally) about the reasons for invading Iraq post-9/11. But that isn't to say that removing Saddam Hussein from power wasn't a global or regional good. It's trendy and low-hanging fruit to bash the American military for international involvements, or its many failures. But it's equally important to note that the times America has turned inward and taken a more isolationist stance have resulted in the greatest turns away from international diplomacy and transgressions of international human rights. The alternative to "Team America World Police imperial global colonization authority with military bases all over the world like the friggin Roman Empire" is not "life as we know it, minus America." It's every country is one dictator or military coup away from becoming an undemocratic state. So I'd weigh how happy a citizen of Myanmar or Venezuela are with their life vs the ugliness of American military power.
dzhiurgis 5y ago
> needs to invade Russia Having lived next to Russia I’d love to see it wiped off the map. Easily the worst nation in the world. Basically a terrorist state. Disgusting.