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What rubbish! Let's start with the Ukranians get to decide what goes on in Ukraine. Full stop, Russia is not invited to the decision. That is a nation of indepe

What rubbish! Let's start with the Ukranians get to decide what goes on in Ukraine. Full stop, Russia is not invited to the decision. That is a nation of independent human beings, not a "buffer zone". The analogy to an abuser claiming ownership of a battered spouse is becoming incredibly apt.

ivan_gammel 5y ago
They do not decide on NATO or EU membership. They can only decide if the country should apply, but NATO is not obliged to serve them Article 5. Exactly because of that there can be actually a multilateral security agreement between NATO, Ukraine and Russia that could include non-expansion of NATO in exchange for some other, rock solid security guarantees. Same with EU membership: it can be a multilateral trade deal instead between EU, EAEU and Ukraine.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  My ex-wife does not get to decide if she dates someone else; she only decides if she can ask. The other man is not obligated to say yes. If you're not a citizen of Ukraine, it's none of your business. Maybe if you didn't keep beating her bloody you'd have a better relationship?
  - ivan_gammel 5y ago
    As German taxpayer, investor and energy consumer I care a lot where my money go and you should not tell me what is my business.
    - stickfigure 5y ago
      - ivan_gammel 5y ago
        I do not think personal attacks have any place on this forum. In any case, your conclusion is rather primitive and lacks any depth. I do not support the idea of expansion of NATO, military help to Ukraine or the idea of imminent war that may soon happen. This however does not mean I’m taking side of aggressor here. It’s just that those ideas are counterproductive and dangerous. They do not help to bring peace. Instead they will cement the Putin‘s rule, enable Ukrainian far right groups to advance further their agenda and make peaceful solution more distant than ever. Americans should really get out of European politics and rely more on judgment of their partners. Their muscle power is no longer desirable way to handle security topics here.
jaybrendansmith 5y ago
This is Putin fighting against the inevitable, like a spoiled child. Ukraine wants to join Europe in some fashion. They want to be able to travel where they wish, to make good salaries from US or European companies, to be free to choose. Many in their 30s are all good English speakers. They would like to join the rest of the world. They are no longer really in the Russian 'sphere of influence', whatever that means anymore. And they are some of the smartest and best educated people in the world, so why shouldn't they? Putin is fighting a losing, regressive fight against the future. If he chooses to invade, there will be hell to pay, and the rest of the world should be willing to help a free people defend themselves.

ivan_gammel 5y ago

They do not decide on NATO or EU membership. They can only decide if the country should apply, but NATO is not obliged to serve them Article 5. Exactly because of that there can be actually a multilateral security agreement between NATO, Ukraine and Russia that could include non-expansion of NATO in exchange for some other, rock solid security guarantees. Same with EU membership: it can be a multilateral trade deal instead between EU, EAEU and Ukraine.

stickfigure 5y ago
My ex-wife does not get to decide if she dates someone else; she only decides if she can ask. The other man is not obligated to say yes. If you're not a citizen of Ukraine, it's none of your business. Maybe if you didn't keep beating her bloody you'd have a better relationship?
- ivan_gammel 5y ago
  As German taxpayer, investor and energy consumer I care a lot where my money go and you should not tell me what is my business.
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    - ivan_gammel 5y ago
      I do not think personal attacks have any place on this forum. In any case, your conclusion is rather primitive and lacks any depth. I do not support the idea of expansion of NATO, military help to Ukraine or the idea of imminent war that may soon happen. This however does not mean I’m taking side of aggressor here. It’s just that those ideas are counterproductive and dangerous. They do not help to bring peace. Instead they will cement the Putin‘s rule, enable Ukrainian far right groups to advance further their agenda and make peaceful solution more distant than ever. Americans should really get out of European politics and rely more on judgment of their partners. Their muscle power is no longer desirable way to handle security topics here.

jaybrendansmith 5y ago

This is Putin fighting against the inevitable, like a spoiled child. Ukraine wants to join Europe in some fashion. They want to be able to travel where they wish, to make good salaries from US or European companies, to be free to choose. Many in their 30s are all good English speakers. They would like to join the rest of the world. They are no longer really in the Russian 'sphere of influence', whatever that means anymore. And they are some of the smartest and best educated people in the world, so why shouldn't they? Putin is fighting a losing, regressive fight against the future. If he chooses to invade, there will be hell to pay, and the rest of the world should be willing to help a free people defend themselves.